Always Contextualize
I know I’ve been doing a ton of Duke Nukem comics lately, but I’ve been asked to give my thoughts on the Capture the Babe minigame Gearbox has announced by a couple different people over the past few weeks. On the subject of the minigame itself, I can’t really pretend I have an opinion until we get to see the game in action. For all I know it could be on a level of charmingly comical sexism equivalent to something like a friendly chat with Sean Connery, or Conan the Barbarian running in terror from a dragon with a ye-olde-swimsuit-model slung over his shoulder screaming that she “Runs like a pregnant camel”.
What I have stronger feelings about are the people I see claiming that anyone who might be offended by the prospect of game that involves slapping hysterical strippers but cool with dudes smacking around other dudes are being hypocritical. I’ll just put it out there that where hulking 80’s macho men slapping strippers might not sit well with the public, you don’t see a whole lot of people complaining about things like Anne Lewis getting punched off a ledge in fist fight with a member of Boddicker’s gang or Aveline getting pommel smacked in the face during a run-in a Tal Vashoth berserker. People who aren’t on board with Duke slapping his booty babes aren’t necessarily promoting double standards, they’d just be more comfortable if a game about women being hit focused more on the sort of women who hit back.
Maybe someday all of my dreams will come true and we can have Duke Nukem Forever Extreme Slapfight Beach Volleyball Edition full of equally objectified jiggling bikini girls and rippling Venice Beach musclemen. Until then, I’m not gonna hold it against anyone if they aren’t particularly sold on the idea of Capture the Babe.
Discussion (323) ¬
ALWAYS BET ON DOOK
I’m a female Duke Nukem fan and gamer. I can’t say ‘capture the babe’ is my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean I won’t play it. It’ll probably seem more awkward from my point of view than most typical Duke fans. That being said, I must give credit to the team for trying a different take on a predictable formula. Hopefully it’ll pay off.
Hmmmm. Thats a very good point. I never feel like a game about doing anything – either slapping women or killing middle-eastern men, or anything else for that matter – promotes the activity in real life.
As for putting up comics late, I wouldn’t worry too much. It’s your project, your comic, and you’re the one writing, drawing and colouring it. I doubt you would anyway, but don’t let anybody give you a hard time because you don’t make the schedule *every* time like they expect you to. They’re not the ones making it.
It’s not necessarily about direct promotion of an act or attitude. It’s still perpetuating the idea that slapping women is/could be funny and fun. Women being hit and sexually harassed is a real-world thing that is actually happening all the time; it’s honestly not too much to ask that real-world problems be handled in entertainment and games with a modicum of sensitivity and awareness.
Bikini babes becoming hysterical and needing (needing!) to be slapped sounds, no matter how you portray it, ridiculously offensive and insensitive. It’s not the same when we’re talking about, using your example of Aveline, an equal fight occurring most often in a fantasy universe (in Thedas, woman warriors definitely aren’t a rare example, as is my impression).
It has no bearing whether a woman is ditzy, smart, clothed in skimpy or business outfits, rich or poor… they still have the right to not be subject to violence, and the idea of violence (sans ability to fight back on equal footing, e.g. in fantasy rpg’s) directed towards them used as entertainment.
So, like, if it was an effiminate gay man (in this scenario, equally defenseless) you’d be equally outraged?
I don’t see a problem with anyone being slapped. I can see it now, I’m imagining that scene in every Goddamn action movie ever where the ineffectual female love interest is becoming hysterical, and the resident macho buff dude has to slap her across the face (sometimes substituted with the shoot into the ceiling, or the rough handling of the head to look into his eyes) to shock her into realizing “Woman, people are shooting at us, I do not have time for this.”, before slinging her hysterical ass over his shoulder and killing all the terrorists one-armed with a never-ending maching gun – and knowing the tone of Duke Nukem Past, I can see it being played out in the same macho way, without any real malice, perhaps more as homage, or parody even.
I’ll reserve judgement until it’s released, and if it is done crassly, then, and only then, will I reconsider my stance on the matter. But right now, knowing Duke is essentially a parody of Action Heroes, I don’t think it will be monstrously out of place in a universe where the main character regularly frequented strip clubs between killing hordes of aliens while chewing gum – unless, of course, he’s all out of gum, in which case shit’s about to get real.
Agreed. Let’s go further: The action hero is carrying his group through a battle field. The sidekick, a male guy, just weaker and less war-experienced, trips on a corpse and gets histerical. The hero holds and shakes his shoulders to snap him out of it. It doesn’t work so he slaps the sidekick. He stops screaming holding his face for a second, and go “whew… thanks, I needed that”, but still need to be carried since he’s too wounded to make it on foot. Then it’s ok.
As Duke said, that’s double standards.
That said, “*I’M* complaining!” just made my day.
I’m sure if Duke was leading a fully-clothed girl in long pants who had previously proven herself to be capable, just weaker and less war experienced across a battlefield, she tripped on a corpse and got hysterical, Duke shook her shoulders to snap her out of it, and it didn’t work so her slapped her and she stopped screaming and said “Whew… thanks, I needed that” but still needed to be carried because she was too wounded to make it on her own, you wouldn’t see nearly as many people complaining. (I’m sure people would still complain, but their argument would hold much less water) Like Commander said, “You changed too many variables”.
Conversely, let’s imagine an action hero carying around a speedo-clad himbo with no previous backstory or character development, he starts freaking out so the hero slaps his ass. Not really the same thing as your soldier story.
It hurts your argument too though, cause I’m picturing that and it’s hilarious.
Not saying it can’t be funny, just saying it’s different. And that way, everyone gets some funny eye candy to enjoy and no one needs to worry about hurt feelings. It’s like I really just just explained the whole comic I wrote.
“As Duke said, that’s double standards.”
Double standard – having one standard for one thing, and another standard for… a completely different thing under completely different circumstances
Well done sir in revealing these HIPPO-CRITS
Hey, I can understand The Commander’s attitude on this. It’s not discrimination if you’re offending *everybody* equally.
Yep, yep I would be outraged no matter if Duky Nuky slapped a gurl or guy for nothing except the slapping with no explanation why or a background story that fits.
And I would want to see you if a Duky Nuky Hunky Pants -guy rans up to you with a slight deranged glint in his eyes, grabbing you, slinging you over his shoulder and carrying you off.
Bet you would scream your butty off because ..hell that IS scary when some enormous dude grabs you like a rag doll and drags you off..and you have no idea why…..and you have to fear it might be to have his wicked way with your little, hot behind.
Because face it, compared to Duky Nuky most guys have a itty bitty tight behind.
If that would be the soldier story about being wounded, hysterical and needing to be carried off..yep.
Hey but why not make it into a game with dudes and gurly getting carried off and bitch slapped by Duky Nuky?
Man I would love that. Imagine Duky carrying of the Hulk who is sqealing in a high voice and getting bitch and/or dude slapped.
I am tired about all those Bikini gurls, lets carry off and slapp around some hunky dunky dudes…bikinis would be a nice addition but not required.
Imagine Tony Stark in an Iron Man-full metal Bikini
Lemme guess. You were one of the people that railed against Penny Arcade for promoting “rape culture” with the Dickwolves comic, right? Not to start a flame war but this is gonna start a flame war, isn’t it.
“Women being hit and sexually harassed is a real-world thing that is actually happening all the time”
This line was basically the dead giveaway. In an admittedly weak defense of the concept, so is murder. Videogames promote the idea that war, streetfights, and often gruesome murder can be fun. Hell, IS fun. As long as they take place in videogames. Don’t give me any bollocks about how murder is a “universally recognized bad concept” while sexual harrassment isn’t or whatever, because you know that’s a strawman.
“It has no bearing whether a woman is ditzy, smart, clothed in skimpy or business outfits, rich or poor… they still have the right to not be subject to violence”
Your brain probably will shut right down after this sentence, but so do men. That we continue to tolerate and even celebrate it in not only games but movies, books, and sports suggest you’ve got a very specific myopia going on about exactly what will get your feathers ruffled. Ask yourself this: would you shut up about how sexist Capture the Babe is if they gave you the option to capture a muscled, oily dude too?
~~~~~~
Personally, I believe dumb, sexist men AND women will find any reason to be dumb & sexist. Nobody who tells people they want to split a coworker like a peach is going to need Duke Nukem to show them how it’s done, and considering the literally hundreds of Japanese games I can access RIGHT NOW about rape & sexual harrassment–I think if this “rape & harrassment culture” argument held any water there would basically be no women left in Japan.
The PA guys did far worse in that debacle than flub a single comic, so please don’t go there.
The PA guys did what any sane person in their position would have done: act baffled as hell at what the commotion is about, before turning back to making a lowbrow humor webcomic while running a charity for sick kids.
I’ve got a theory to why sexism is still so pervasive despite our best efforts to quash it: feminists have really got to pick their battles better.
I completely missed the who PA buzz, I’ll I’ve heard from it were little scraps of what went on in the aftermath. I read the dickwolves comic, I just don’t know what happened to make it explode like that.
Uhm, they didn’t just turn right back to their comic and ignore criticism; that would have been the sane thing to do. Instead they reacted to criticism by selling t-shirts to taunt rape victims. They also sat idly by while their fans sent rape and death threats to their critics for a long time, and only when ONE asshole made an awful joke about Gabe’s family, was it suddenly a big deal to them.
They are NOT on the side of the angels.
Selling T-shirts to taunt rape victims? Puh-lease.
They made a joke that some people found offensive and others found hilarious. They made that joke into a T-shirt. That’s all that happened. Anything else is merely you imagining some evil thought process behind it all, looking for something to rail against.
Also, an artist is not responsible for the acts of their fans. Just because some fans are overreacting (which I do disapprove of) doesn’t mean there has to be something wrong with the comic or the people making it. Do you hold J.D. Salinger accountable for the death of John Lennon?
No, this was just another example of a lame joke spiralling out of control because people with nothing better to do singled it out and blew it out of proportions, and then other equally pathetic people reacted to that development in a totally wrong way. Whether or not you like the joke is a personal matter, but leveling all kinds of accusations at the authors is pointless. Claiming that the PA guys were somehow promoting rape is simply pathetic.
Just because you feel offended doesn´t make it offensive.
Since you’re dismissing the emotional reaction of the viewer as a criterion for determining whether something’s offensive, what do you think makes that thing offensive?
… and just how is the reaction of the viewer invalid for doing so, anyway?
“It’s offensive” means that at least an overwhelming majority of people will be offended by this. For example: sexual misconduct with elementary school age kids is “offensive”. There is generally very little controversy when something is truly “offensive”.
“I’m offended” means that you personally are offended. Example: boss tells you your work is under-quality, you will be “offended*”. Your coworkers, with whom you are in competition for good assignments, raises, and window seats, may totally agree or at least be tickled pink that your boss thinks so.
Note that you can speak for yourself, but not the vast majority of people. It would take the reaction of all or most of the viewers to determine that the PA comic was offensive. The pitch of all the debate around it proves that some people were offended and others thought it was hilarious. As for me, I don’t read unfunny comics, so I never read the strip in question.
Actually, i wasnt offended by the comic, i was only offended by their awful behavior in response to criticism. The PA guys are not idiots, they know how their fanbase reacts and they know how social media work; there’s no excuse for their behavior.
The dickwolves are expressed in their own comic as being rapists, and after the huge controversy about some rape victims being offended by them, they make a dickwolves t-shirt to capitalize on the controversy and give the finger to their critics. That’s pretty plainly selling t-shirts to taunt rape victims. I’m not ascribing some motives that I gleaned with magical telepathy that no reasonable person could see from viewing the events, this is pretty much the obvious interpretation of what happened.
And if a joke is just a joke, why was it suddenly a big deal to them when someone made a threatening joke about Gabes family? Gee it’s almost like a double standard.
The way I see it the taunt is not towards rape victims, but towards people who get all worked up over nothing. The original controversy was the comic. The T-shirt was little more than a reaction to the way people reacted to the comic. Besides, there were a lot of fans who did find the comic hilarious, and selling T-shirts of things your fans feel strongly about (and let’s face it; controversy is publicity) is hardly a strange business move.
I do agree with your last paragraph though. Since they decided to play ball and react to the criticism in such a confrontational way, it´s just weak that they withdrew the moment it hit a bit closer to home.
I really don’t want this debate on my site, because I have seen it end up as nothing but incredibly toxic wherever it lands. Both sides have displayed a mean streak of assuming anything less than unconditional support equals opposition. The extremists supporting either view are arguing past each other about completely different issues and the people who try to behave diplomatically are reviled by the most vocal from both camps.
Imagery can take on a life that the creator didn’t intend, and that is why the shirts mean something different to the people feeling victimized than the people planning on wearing the shirts. The creators have every right to consider that, and decide how they want to mediate a middle ground that causes their intended audience the least damage.
I think I’m going to have to say that if there is more discussion on the subject, I’ll be inclined to delete the comments. It really isn’t something I care to have my site dragged into or be forced to mediate. You might consider that I am stepping on your free speech saying as much, but this is my website with my name and reputation attached to it so I will politely state that this is a matter I would rather not be involved with. Thanks.
Noted, and I apologize for my contributions to that derail (and please feel free to delete my comments on it if you’d prefer). Reigning myself in now. :)
I can summarize my beliefs for you, if it makes you feel better – I am above all a fierce proponent of humanist principles. I did not say, and am not saying, that men are not subject to harmful cultural memes and expectations. This is by no means a trivial issue.
But as comes up in every single discussion of sexism, men are inevitably the status quo and wield institutional power. Which leaves women in a more vulnerable position – as happens automatically with coloured folks in a predominantly white powered society, LGBT folks in a predominantly heterosexual society, and so on.
And on a principal level, no, I don’t think it’s indicative of a healthy society AT ALL that violence and cruelty of all kinds is accepted without question as entertainment and every day fact. I don’t think it’s alright for me NOT to speak up while wielding the lofty feminist ideal of equality and humanist principles of universal rights, always, for everyone, the right for self-determination, acceptance, social intimacy, and so on and so on.
My problems with media run far deeper than “just games” having violent, sexist and racist content. Am I calling for a ban to all violent, racist, sexist (etc) media and entertainment – no, which doesn’t mean attention shouldn’t be brought to these details, that we shouldn’t talk about these things. As Krishnamurti so excellently put it, “It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
I just want to see everyone equally objectivied and exploited, but I’m kind of a barbarian like that. Gotta say, I’d miss my explosionfest action movies if we decided to neuter all the violence, sexism, and racism out of the media.
Well, we live in this society now. I can’t say I don’t find these things humorous occasionally – but, in a very very ideal world, we wouldn’t want or need humor like that. This is of course pie in the sky, hypothetical territory. I think the main thing to keep in mind is that while intelligent humans can and do enjoy banalities (and everything that’s been mentioned in this big and wide thread), they do it with an understanding of what is wrong or lacking or cruel in the humor. An uncritical attitude, accepting without question is what’s problematic.
(Of course, I don’t live in a Western society and I harbour idealistic desires, admittedly of the pie-in-the-sky variety; I am also much more critical of your cultural memes thanks to looking from the outside in, oftentimes without proper context. Hopefully, I’m not too flamey.)
Moxicity, we laugh at things we disagree with. In East Germany, no matter how miserable the people were, they still could manage laugh at the government– even if there was a chance it would get them killed. Most of my peers make racist jokes as a way to make fun of (and therefore reject) racism. And what about this comic? It contains jokes both against sexism and against extreme feminists, and Coelasquid is female– obviously showing her opinions about both of these groups.
My point is that there with always be dark humor because there will always be a dark and a light side to this world, and humans being human, we will always try to make the best of both. Now, it is late, and I have a headache, so I am definitely not in my prime, but I don’t need to write three paragraphs to tell you that…if your vision of a perfect world is one so blind as to ignore it’s dark side completely…not try to look at it, not try to fix it, not even try to laugh at it…then, it is very dark indeed. If you want to take away our ability to laugh at ourselves, you might as well try to take away our ability to laugh at anything at all. Please don’t. And if nothing else, only know that we are all people, here. It’s bad form to call us “Western” and pretend to set yourself apart. All of us live on earth, and what the Germans laughed at, the Americans laugh at…What the Americans laugh at, the Danes laugh at…the Chinese, the Indians, and the Iranians also laugh.
Where do you live?
I live in Estonia. When I say “I don’t live in a Western society”, I don’t mean to stand myself apart and be snooty – my country is very quite different from the US, while we do have some similarities due to us consuming a lot of Western media in the past two decades. I’m saying I’m not intimately familiar with the ins and outs of Western society, because I don’t live there. I don’t ‘get’ a lot of the humour derived from media and entertainment that was before my time and outside my cultural space.
And… *sigh* if you’ve heard about the Zeitgeist movement, that’s a bit of what I’m talking about. Eliminating or “banning” humour is the farthest thing on my mind. I wish, and I do believe this will happen one day, that cruelty will not be funny one day in the future. Making a subversive joke about the backward ways and the tragedies of past is not my problem; people who sincerely find enjoyment and uncritical glee at the misery of others are kind of the problem. I understand as well as you do that the ability to mock and laugh at oneself is a sign of intelligence.
And with that – I think I’ll stop clarifying my comments in this thread – it’s clear some folks are more interested in what they perceive to be my personal lackings.
Yes I’ve heard of the Zeitgeist movement…. let’s not even go THERE. But yes, human beings do and always will find a degree of humor in the misfortune of others. This varies of course, I’m not laughing at the victims in Japan for example. But when I do see a video of a person, as an example, trying to dive off a ladder into a pool and landing on concrete, I laugh. Misfortune is funny to human beings, its the whole reasoning behind slapstick comedy.
I think you make valid points, Moxicity. Humor CAN be a powerful, positive tool. Playing with stereotypes can break taboos and provide constructive criticism, but the humor here seems to just trivialize a very serious, real problem–you’re brave to point that out. Taking off of what Kelly said, what about women who fought back? I’d personally find it a lot funnier if Duke had to capture a “babe” who actually put up a fight and/or outwitted his muscles. Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoy the Duke Nukem franchise! I don’t see this minigame as a serious blow to women or proof of the end of society or whatever, but I’m also not about to defend the image it’s putting up or criticize the people who are offended by it.
It would be an interesting concept, but it’s not really parallel to the Duke franchise.
I AM NOT TRYING TO GET INTO A BIG DEBATE. IM SIMPLY SAYING WHAT THE DUKE FRANCHISE IS ABOUT. I PERSONALLY DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THIS WHOLE TOPIC.
The duke franchise makes all it’s sales by parodying the sexist, male super-spectacular action hero, etc. And that’s why it has a feature like this.
Duke Nukem in general, is a parody of sexism. So claiming some terrible idolising here, is both completely accurate, but also completely irrelevant.
If they make a game similar, but roles reversed, then I wouldn’t care either. This is just a game. It is a form of entertainment, and people tend to jump onto high horses, with their great ideals, without thinking, “what if this entertainment wasn’t here?”
I TAKE BACK WHAT I SAID. IM ALL UP FOR DISCUSSION
I’m a humanist, so I’m pretty against violence. NBut I do know that games are not real, and that there is no real harm in playing a game like this. Humans are not perfect, so idealising a perfect world is foolish. It would last about a day before someone decided, “hey, Imma go club my neighbour to death with this candlestick”
Because that’s how the world works.
I’m sorry, I’m sounding really angry, but I’m too lazy to go back and change it atm. Projects, etc.
I’m curious. I’m a white guy. I am partial to racist jokes, I find them funny. On all counts. Someone wants to make an Irish joke, I’m all up for that, someone makes a general white joke, that’s also usually hilarious. Would I be classed as a racist?
The problem with the concept of an “Ideal” society, is whose ideal? There are plenty of societies throughout history that during their greatest days, had things that others wouldn’t dream of tolerating, such as various forms of slavery, human sacrifice, forced gladiatorial combat, strict class based social heiarchies based on birth, tribal warfare and conquest, ethnic cleansing, genital mutilation, communism, interactive murder simulators, and jerry springer. To these various societies, internally they (being the majority of those with the power to make or enforce decisions) were following what they considered their shared “ideal”, even if to outsiders it was considered barbaric, immoral or inhuman. Personally, I’m perfectly confident in my own manliness and would have no qualms about myself or anyone else walking about nekkid in public, but that wouldn’t mesh with the ideals of others that wish me clothed so I don’t offend their eyeballs with my awe inspiring DNA exposed to the whole world.
I will totally forgive any objectifying if I get at least one Transporter-style male striptease per instance.
The only thing all this discussion has served to accomplish for me is that I now want a situation to arise where Jonesy needs to slap the shit of the Commander. Not really concerned with what exactly prompts it, but it would certainly be entertaining.
I second the motion for Jonesy slapping the shit out of the Commander.
And what happens when the rage from getting slapped finally let’s him burn women with his mind??
The comic would be over…
Doesn’t have to be a rage inducing slap, maybe he’s stunned by something and needs to regain his senses. The Commander doesn’t seem to be so hotheaded a guy that a little slap will spark mono-gender pyrokinesis.
Knowing the Commander, he may actually appreciate that Jonesy had the guts to slap him at all and might be pleased rather than angry.
I hate how people are likening a silly concept minigame’s pat on the bum to a serious case of domestic violence. It’s like you’re just seeing the words “Bikini Babe” and “Slap”, then letting your imagination exaggerate the bejeezus out of it.
Some groups see “x attacking y” and assume the worst in all cases. Just a fact of life, really.
Just like I feel its perfectly acceptable to step on up to a car, yank the driver out, and speed off because I don’t feel like walking a few blocks? Carjacking is a real thing, so is murder, or visiting a prostitute and yet I’ve done a whole lot of those in video games and none of it in real life. My kill ratio of police officers is well into the thousands and video games, its quite small in real life. And since I’m already on GTA, there’s a mission in Grand Theft Auto 4 where you kidnap a mobster’s daughter and Niko just flat punches her out cold to shut her up, in Ballad of Gay Tony Luis punches her out again because she wont shut up as he’s rescuing her, that made me feel more than a little uncomfortable, this does not.
You don’t appreciate bad taste humor, fine. I get that, I really do, it’s not for everybody. But somehow implying that using it in a video game, intended for people of an age high enough to know better, is going to help bring down the walls of society and throw the feminist cause back is more than a little far fetched.
I’m not saying Duke Nukem Forever does anything to help the cause of women everywhere, but the media seems to portray it as being financed by the culmination of that extra 75 cents women haven’t been making for the last 50 years. It’s smacking a stripper’s ass, and anybody dumb enough to try that in real life will get what they deserve and then some. (And for the record, in Duke Nukem 3D I vividly remember rendering many a stripper into bloody bits with a shotgun after giving her a wadded up 100 to flash her breasts. Which, honestly, is kind of a lot worse than capture the babe could ever hope to be.)
The issue that I think most rational people have a problem with is not so much that they sincerely believe this game will make people think it’s okay to go out and start smacking around women as that it may further validate people who feel like that kind of behaviour is funny. In some case it can be, sexist humour, like racist humour, only works if you do it in such a way that it’s making fun of the sexist or racist rather than encouraging people to laugh at the victim. In my experience as a woman in a western society who goes out in public on occassion, you’re far more likely to be harassed and pushed around by someone who thinks they’re being funny than someone who seriously wants to assault you.
Yes, but that also assumes the people you’re referring to need validation. The sort of social deviants you’re referring to are pretty off-kilter to the way the world works to begin with. I’m making generalities, but the men who find misogny hilarious in an un-ironic way are usually the same people who incorporate plenty of racist and anti-gay words into their everyday vocabulary despite the fact that it visibly makes everyone they know uncomfortable.
Has anyone ever felt even slightly validated by anything they’ve done in a videogame? And I mean this seriously as a philosophical question because I can’t recall a single instance in my vast gaming history where hearing or doing something in a game made me feel like such an action or thought was justified just because I played it. I think we’re putting games under a lense that we’re not holding to any other form of popular culture here, for example: Ask anyone who’s seen Blue Velvet who their favorite character is and I garuntee pretty much everyone will say Frank Booth: Dennis Hopper’s scenery chewing, swearing, amyl-nitrate inhaling, misogynistic psychopath. He’s easily the most beloved character in the movie. Or look at Michael Moriarty in Q, The Winged Serpent: He’s a complete scumbag and sometimes beats his girlfriend when he gets drunk but I’ve yet to meet a single person that saw that movie that couldn’t help themselves from liking him in spite of this.
I really do understand where everyone’s coming from here, but this game is going to change nothing for better or worse, it’s not going to shake the world any more than whatever game we’re going to be arguing about next month. I don’t know anyone over the age of 12 who takes Duke Nukem to be anything but a big dork that just happens to be good at killing things. The last game was incredibly tongue-in-cheek and this one teeters on the brink of being outright parody and I just don’t buy anybody who’s not already an asshole becoming one from playing it.
Guys who think it’s funny to harass women seem, to me, far more common than people who are actively racist (and probably about equal to the number of people who are unapologetivally homophobic) When I was going to college there was a straight stretch of road from the school to the bank/grocery store/Wal-Mart/dollar store, almost every time I walked down that road one group of young guys in a car other another would heckle me, ranging from drive-by shoutings of things like “FAT BITCH” or “STUPID WHORE” to slow peels of following me while I walked down the sidewalk telling me that I should come over and get in their car. Again, this was almost every time I went out, to the point that I had anxiety about going to the bank.
These guys weren’t curmudgeony old men, sitting on their porch ranting about “the way things were”, they were just young, college-age guys with a fratboy pack mentality who think that sort of thing is funny. I don’t think a game is going to turn someone into that kind of person, but if we unquestioningly just put things that validate that sort of behaviour out in the media without lampooning it to an obvious degree, we’re only encouraging people to keep acting like that. No single piece of media is responsible, but if you keep giving the message that “this is funny, anyone who doesn’t agree is lame and making a big deal out of nothing” over and over again, THAT’S what influences people.
Amen.
Thanks for stating such a sensible view so calmly! I was trying to think of a way to say this myself without coming across as angry.
PS: Love the comics :)
But it’s the Duke. I see the arguments on your side, and I’d generally even support them, at least until such time as the true total equality Coela mentioned came around, and even then, there’d be a pretty glaring line. However, when something is known for being as off the wall in insensitive as Duke Nukem is, I find it hard to get worked up about it. It’s like how people used to (and I’m sure someone still does) argue that Pokemon turns people into animal fighters, the product in question is so far removed from sense and reality that’s it’s just ridiculous and a real-world issue, even one presented, isn’t an issue.
Besides, this is the kind of game where if people complain about something enough, the developers are bound to do something to purposefully make it more offensive just because A) I feel like Gearbox has the balls to not let people push them around, and B) Duke Nukem is built around the concept of ego-centric asshole gets the girl… and kicks alien butt.
I’m gonna have to point out a typo with that second-last sentence, “Duke Nukem is built around the concept of ego-centric asshole gets the girl…”
You missed a plural.
Damn. I should have caught that. Thanks.
“Bikini babes becoming hysterical and needing (needing!) to be slapped sounds, no matter how you portray it, ridiculously offensive and insensitive. It’s not the same when we’re talking about, using your example of Aveline,”
I agree completely and that was the exact point I was trying to make. I was trying to explain, for the people I’ve seen calling double standards in others who are not happy with this, why “Capture the Babe” would offend people without making them hypocrites. Aveline and Lewis are my examples that people are not against all forms of violence against women, only when the women are defenseless props. If the women are making an equal contribution to the violence, most people are fine with that.
Yes – I was a smidge unclear on your wording, but I agree with your… agreement. I felt I had to say something extra, knowing it would set off people disagreeing with either this very brief summary of feminism (there is always so much left unsaid – I don’t know how to be brief) or the fact that sexism is bad and shouldn’t be propagated with unquestioning glee.
It’s still perpetuating the idea that slapping women is/could be funny and fun.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh, not exactly…
Okay, it’s perpetuating the idea that slapping women is or could be funny, but that’s not entirely the problem, because there’s just as much cultural capital invested in the sheer hilarity of inflicting harm on men. There’s a common sentiment that it’s abhorrent to hit a woman but perfectly fine to hit a man, not to mention it’s pretty difficult for male victims of domestic abuse to be taken seriously, let alone to come forward in the first place.
I think the problem pretty much comes down to agency. ‘Bikini babes’ are seen as inconsequential objects to be treated as seen fit, with no agency of their own to act. As you no doubt mean, and as the intrepid artist points out.
What it pretty much boils down to here, I think is not so much the idea that hitting anyone (man or woman) is or could be funny, schadenfreude clearly shows that violence can be funny, but rather that the idea that sexism is funny. That in this case it’s funny not because it’s silly violence, but because it’s “lol sexism!”
So the issue is really whether it’s crossed the line from pastiche to lazy lowest-denominator transgression humour
You stated your point well, but I think it all falls apart when you just mention Loony Toons. NO ONE thinks bashing each other with hammers or discretely depositing bombs into another’s open palm is funny in real life, but do it in a TV show and it’s funny. The duke is the same way. He can do all sorts of horrible things to women, and as long as it stays in a comedic context, it will always be funny, regardless of the harsh reality of it.
Holy crap, I didn’t read this whole long string of posts. My last comment was aimed at moxicity’s first post, in case there is some confusion as to who I was talking.
To reply to Moxicitys first post, I’d say the minigame isn’t offensive to anyone. If I started panicking in that situation, I would actually prefer it if someone would slap me. It jolts you and potentially stops the damned panic on it’s tracks, or at least makes you think again.
So it’s in no way degrading or horrible for a woman to get slapped if the asshole panics; hell, I’m a woman and I’d do the exact same thing if it stopped the ditzy exotic dancer in the bikini from running into enemy fire.
On a lighter note, portraying the good old strippers in Duke Nukem as somewhat idiotic, sexy things is hilarious and is part of Dukes charm.
Thank you for the Marine-in-a-Bikini shot coelasquid, that’s just what I needed to see before I sleep, now pardon me I need to go acquire a vast quantity of brain bleach.
Marcus Penix
Quoth A Pimp Named Slickback:
“Scientifically speaking, has NOT slappin’ the bitch achieved the desired result?!”
So, yeah, violence toward non-participatory women is bad. I mean, hey, if the lady’s fighting and punches happen, it’s a fight. When the bad guys punched Anne Lewis, they weren’t punching a lady. They were punching a cop! A cop with the power to ruin their little enterprise and spoil the fun. Anne could’ve been a bodybuilding trans-gendered cop. It wouldn’t have made too much difference.
But, Duke-or-Alive-Extreme-Ho-Slap-Horseshoes is a game. In some entertainment contexts, misogyny is comedic. Without misogyny, you’d never have heard of Benny Hill. Duke Nukem would just be a “doomguy” clone. It’s sort of an exploration of the theme. It’s got highs and lows, but nobody of our cultural mindset really wants to see these things happen in front of them.
Lastly, will I play the game? Eh, probably not. Seems pointless. If you really want to capture a woman, do her laundry. It worked for me.
Misogyny tends to be used for comedic purposes but I would argue that misandry is never used in quite the same contexts. When you see a man being sexist against a woman, you tend to find it funny at the expense of the woman. But when you see a woman being sexist against a man, you don’t find it funny at the expense of the man, you still find it funny at the expense of the woman because “Ha! She thinks she’s standing up for woman’s rights but really she’s just being a hypocrite!”.
I don’t think misogyny should be forgiven just because it’s funny.
Hunh, really? I always hear women laughing about women abusing a guy in comedies by calling him a pansy or a “weenie” or something like that. It’s often put in the context that the guy is spineless and either needs to be slapped around because he did something stupid or needs to have his mess cleaned up by his sensible wife. It’s a pretty common theme.
Not excusing any real misogyny by any means, here, just saying that claiming “misandry is never used in quite the same contexts” and that it’s only about bringing the woman down is a little off-the-mark.
Ah that could be true, maybe I’m just watching the wrong shows?
If you’ve never seen a show where a useless husband is ushered through life like an overgrown child by his flawless wife who for some reason is the only one who gets to be rational, you’ve probably never seen a family sitcom or primetime animated series. I think King of the Hill is the only animated family that comes to mind where the dad isn’t played as an idiot or useless without his wife.
yeah, but to be fair, the interesting point of those sitcoms and animated series its to show how funny it is when men are 0% rational (even in simple tasks) and how rational women are able not only to solve the problems but have enought patience to avoid killing their husband XD
Plenty of people are sick of the formula and think it’s funnier if a dad has a personality beyond “is dumb”. Myself included.
I like the $#*! my dad says series (still airing in Australia), because the patriarch is the centre of the family unit, and is clever enough to know how to manipulate his kids and those around him, but narrow minded enough to be vulnerable. (You know, like us flawed human beings)
It’s the first sitcom from the US I’ve actually watched for more than one episode…
Yeah, I follow Shit My Dad says on Twitter, words of wisdom. Haven’t been fortunate enough to read the book or see the series though.
There’s interesting and funny, and then there’s overplayed cruel caricatures.
And that would be the exact misandry that JT and Coelasquid were talking about.
That’s a good point. Hank Hill is the only one I can name after the 1980s or so who WASN’T an idiot or crazy.
Roseanne’s husband was pretty down to earth. In fact, the only reason I can stomach that woman’s voice while watching the show is because the characters are so damn believable.
shockingly, I can, married with children, theres not a single, rational character in that show, yet, it always amuses me because of that.
I suppose that is true. I was thinking of family guy as an example but even though the husband is stupid the show still manages to be completely sexist towards women.
So maybe the sexism is more spread around? Sort of like everyone is equally a victim of sexism? Which is kind of a warped way to get equality if you think about it…
Seeing as the formula behind both the Simpsons and family guy is routed in misogyny…
It’s really not an equal victimisation of men and women from sexism, it’s just misogyny swings around and hurts men on occasion since anything resembling institutionalised misandry I’ve ever seen anyone pointed out has pretty much just been misogyny in drag.
Strange, I can think of no better reason to forgive misogyny than because it’s funny.
Depending on whose perspective it’s supposed to be funny from. Guys who give women drive by appraisals or ask for sex are doing it because they think it’s funny. Guy who slaps a girl’s ass in on the subway because his buddy dared him to thinks he’s being funny. I don’t think that a video game is just going to inherently turn someone into a douchebag, but I think you’re a lot more likely to see someone act on “it’s funny if I grab a stranger’s butt” than “it’s funny if I kill a hooker”.
Full circle!
So, any rate, these concepts, applied to media, make laffs. These concepts applied to real life tend not to make so many laughs. Ugly yuks aside, finding comedy in situations allows us to explore them a bit in a safe place. You can figure out the good and the bad of the situation in a simulation with no real feelings being hurt. It’s sort of like Joan Rivers says.
Imagine you saw a white guy making a racist joke about black people. The only way that would end up being kosher is if he was making fun of people who have those racist sentiments more than he was making fun of another race. Or if he made fun of a broad spectrum of races including his own. (Or I guess in some cases you have those white comedians who were raised in black neighbourhoods but now we’re getting off topic)
If it’s just “it’s funny to dehumanize people who aren’t me” with no punchline at the end to even the playing field, all you doing is encouraging people to dehumanize easy targets for the sake of a laugh. I’m not sure if you’ve ever had you ass grabbed by a stranger who thought he was being funny, but in my experience it’s kind of the thing that ruins your day. And as long as the people who aren’t getting grabbed keep getting messages that it’s a no-harm-no-foul gag where no one gets hurt and everyone has a laugh, they aren’t going feel inclined to stop doing it.
And no, I don’t think a video game is going to magically turn people into douchebags, but depending on how they pull it off, it could be another in a long line of influences encouraging the people who already have that kind of mentality.
“Without misogyny, you’d never have heard of Benny Hill.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Yeah Fenix, some people might complain, but some will be LOVING it.
I’m almost surprised that wasn’t Kratos.
Kratos already barely wears any clothes. Also, it’s funnier because you have to wonder how they got Fenix to do this.
YES. Fenix in a bikini has made my day. this is about 40% fangirling GoW (since mr. raeg-face is not my favorite character, being your standard i-have-issues-and-am-gruff-manly-man) and 60% fangirling Coela. the little gears emblem on the bottom just…it’s just perfection.
also: i would love to participate in “capture the babe.” where do i sign up?
I’m not complaining, Fenix.
Dare I ask how they got him into that outfit in the first place?
I figure Duke gets to call some shots because he has some kind of seniority over other chest-pounding macho man game heroes.
But they’re chest pounding macho men. I would think they’d fight this kind of order, even if it is your senior.
Though if they did literally fight over this, maybe Duke got him into the bikini during the fight. …Though now I just gave myself unsettling mental images…
I could see Duke threatening to throw feces at him if he didn’t comply.
Hmm, but chest-pounding macho men are quite often fine with some form of hierarchy – be it army, monarchy or designated party leader.
I just read some article (non-fictional) by Michael Moorcock that touches on this subject, pointing out that even arch-rebel Robin Hood is only fighting against the wrong king, and is quite happy to bend the knee to the proper king.
I just figure it’s one of those semi-reality-altering “How did you talk me into this, again?” moments.
maybe he tried to impress the chicks by showing his body in bikini? or maybe he just like to cross dress…either way, its not me the one complaining about other peoples likes
Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
That image in my brain to Hell I’ll take.
I’ll be honest, I have no problem with this. I see no difference between this and the destructive antics of Paperboy or even a violent run through Roller Coaster Tycoon. This is Duke we’re talking about; it’s what he DOES. As far as I’m concerned, if it bothers you, don’t play it. Hell, you’ll see worse watching Showcase. This is not a big deal.
First of – Your art really makes this thing absolutely hilarious. I don’t even know why, but the way the babe hangs slung over Duke’s shoulder in panel 3 got a big laugh from me, too. (That is not to diminish the great laugh from Fenix’ duds, of course) I think that the fact that you preserve proper anatomy while going cartoony at the same time really helps the humor of this particular topic.
Now, as for the topic – This is the first I’ve heard about that particular minigame (not a Duke fan, really) and it makes me really uncomfortable. I don’t think that this kind of thing really has a place in modern society. Or in what I would like modern society to be, anyway. Oh well, I wasn’t planning on buying the thing anyway, and that’s about the extend of my power in this regard.
If there was a print of this comic available I would buy it, frame it and have it in my place of work as an EO reminder. Panels 5, 6 and 9 are my heroes.
Nicely put..
Also, wondering when you were going to answer some formspring questions again.
I kind of stopped paying attention to Formspring when I got a wave of “questions” that were basically “I really like your comic”. I appreciate the sentiment and all, but that’s not really a question…. I feel bad just deleting stuff like that because it’s something nice from someone who cares enough to tell me so but uh… I don’t want my whole Formspring page to be “I really like your comic” “thanks”
I’m a female, and I find the idea of “Capture the Babe” hilarious! People need to lighten up!
It does seem like a fun game to me too.
I could write a long, interesting dialogue on people and their relevant and irrelevant emotions and feelings on such a topic. But what it really comes down to is the following.
“If you can’t take a joke. f*ck you”
If people wanted to promote the beating of your everyday helpless babe, they’d go out and start a “Whack-A-Ho” game down at your local arcade. They wouldn’t need Duke Nukem to push them along.
Also, I am now blind. Thanks Fenix.
I think the problem people have is not that they think the game will make people go out and smack around their significant others, but rather that it perpetuates the idea that people should find that kind of behaviour comical. And I gotta say, most of the time I’ve come face to face with a group of guys harassing a woman, it was college age guys acting like what they were doing was funny. They weren’t out cruising to assault anyone, but it’s pretty dehumanizing all the same.
I think the thing is, people who are already jerks are always gonna be jerks, but I’m going to reserve judgement on this until I see whether it’s validating them or lampooning them.
“think the thing is, people who are already jerks are always gonna be jerks”.
That right there did it. Imbeciles are gonna be imbeciles regardless. Even if this didn’t, they’ll find the next thing to justify their behavior.
We keep up the pace and we’ll all end up wearing gray, shaving our heads and speaking in a single tone.
When you think about it, I don’t think those guys are even close to the demographic of target audience (as weird as it sounds, on account of how the good old Dook rolls) anyhow!
I dunno, a lot of “those guys” that I’ve met seemed like 20-something frat boys who play a lot of xbox live. In fact, I’ve been in the company of such guys who make lewd remarks at women from their cars on their way home to play Xbox. I don’t think that they’re acting like that because of the games, but… you know… you don’t need to encourage them…
Those guys specifically are the ones I think are out of the demographic. Ask ’em about Duke, they won’t know what the HELL you are going on about (I hope, God, I hope). Them fratboys worship either Black cOps or Master Chef.
Hell, those people would mock Conker’s Bad Fur Day and that game is made of the same kind of “we are putting this here because it’s funny BECAUSE it’s wrong”.
And I didn’t mean to imply you meant they act like that because of the game, but that they’ll find encouragement (more like a way to justify themselves) from a~nywhere. “That’s why we can’t have nice things!!” really fits here.
A less-immediately-provocative parallel that fans of a certain 100-objectives-running-towards-you game may already be familiar with can perhaps be observed in how Harry Enfield’s satirical Loadsamoney character wound up being seen unironically positively. This was found to be so disturbing that the character was therefore run over by a vehicle.
Wow, around all the other super buff guys Marcus almost looks human… I never thought I’d see the day.
The way Coela drew Marcus’s shoulders aren’t canon, though. His upper torso should be, like, a stability ball.
There are surprisingly few canon Marcus Fenix nudes floating around on google for me to harvest for reference.
I have the distinct feeling there are surprisingly many non-canon ones.
When you use a word like “slap,” no. It’s not overreacting. However, when you consider that it’s not a slap anywhere, it’s a slap on the bottom, it becomes more degrading than painful. If you want to make the argument that Duke is sexist, go ahead. You’re bound to win it, sort of, but I think you’ll find that Duke has always been openly sexist.
Yeah, I’m not set to get bent out of shape about this, I know the nature of Duke Nukem, I’m just saying I can’t hold it against people who do feel uncomfortable hearing about the minigame.
This. There’s a huge difference between slapping a woman and spanking her. The mini-game is stupid and crude and sexist, but I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as it was originally made to sound. If anything, it falls between distasteful and hilariously absurd.
You make a great point. While I hate the idea of Capture the Babe, and games like Grand Theft Auto, I love it when the females can fight back. When they aren’t considered dispensable, or just as eye-candy. I want my female characters to be fully developed and strong in their own right and be able to fight back.
Perhaps if the game allowed you to be a woman and smack around helpless, objectified, histerical guys as well there would be less of an issue.
also, i’s be funny as hell if all the male characters were pumped up, making those muscles like bubbles of helpless terror, chaos and terror :D
Bah. Duke Nukem games are always going to offend. Or else they wouldn’t be Duke.
As much as people like to assume that battered women are sitting around playing Duke Nukem happily until a mini-game crosses the line into needless insult, I don’t think people on the whole are internalizing videogames (or fiction in general, for that matter) to a point where seeing a Duke fangirl wave her tits around for a slap would be thoroughly traumatizing. Women get abused in real life, and it’s not a laughing matter. People also get robbed, murdered and otherwise victimized in similarly unfunny fashions, but these concepts are CONSTANTLY parodied in fiction to MUCH less chagrin than when you slap a gender stereotype on there.
Duke Nukem is a caricature of the manly 90s meathead, babe-chasing and all. He is not real. He plays on ridiculous male fantasy (which honestly, I find far more offensive and embarrassing for men than I do for women). This far removed from its source material, a man beating a woman becomes a sex-crazed dude slapping his sex-crazed chicks in a field for points. In this context, nobody’s laughing at the expense of the girls. They’re laughing at the ludicrous concept.
I think you are giving people too much credit. There are a lot of actual meatheads out there that would find the babe-slapping hilarious at the expense of the girls. The ones who say they wish they could get away with doing that in RL. I’ve known them, and heard them saying as much.
DNF isn’t going to make them go out and start slapping women in RL, and I don’t think it needs to be censored, but it can definitely be criticized. Especially in a world where DNF is a hot commodity while I can’t play a female protagonist in The Last Guardian because the creators think little girls aren’t strong enough to climb things.
“while I can’t play a female protagonist in The Last Guardian because the creators think little girls aren’t strong enough to climb things.”
[citation needed]
Here you go.. What, you thought I would make up such a specific criticism?
Gaaa!!!!!
That is just nuts!
The skirt part I understand but the grip part is pure RAGE!!!
When the rage calms, consider the fact that girls don’t HAVE to wear skirts, and you will rage again. ;)
I’m sure the Zelda folks over at Nintendo could give them a tutorial in working around a skirted hero.
Then honestly problem there is the meatheads themselves. DNF is a satire about them. I’m not going to criticize DNF because the people it’s making fun of exist in real life and don’t get the joke.
And while I agree that that particular call on The Last Guardian is pretty much bull, it’s not like we live “in a world” where that’s the norm for fiction writers. Even in the game industry, there are strong women everywhere. Last time I checked, Tomb Raider was also a pretty hot title. I just think criticizing DNF for this is ridiculous compared to all of the other offenses the industry takes just as lightly. Women can stand up for themselves in real life, and men can make informed decisions free from the ever so compelling influence of Duke Nukem.
The meatheads who don’t realize they’re being made fun of are the ones who take things like this as validation that people think it’s funny when they harass women as long as they’re “just joking around”. How successfully it pokes fun at them lies in how obvious the lampoon is.
Fair. I was mostly making note of the fact that who they were seeing as the butt of the joke was pretty moot when they’re the issue in the first place, but I can see how people in that category might end up looking up to Duke’s class act as funny. I’m still in that hopeful boat that thinks people can’t seriously internalize this stuff, but I suppose there are enough morons out there to ruin that for all of us. :/
I don’t exactly disagree, I just wanted to point out that there are people who don’t get the satire in a positive way. It’s like the guys that saw Fight Club and bought all the dumb empowerment through violence crap without realizing that wasn’t the point.
But come on, though, there are NOT strong women everywhere in games. It only took 15 years before the focus of Lara Croft wasn’t her big tits and short shorts. (I’m super excited about the revamp, btw) There’s a handful of strong woman characters but nowhere near the amount of male leads, and nowhere near the amount of women-as-eye-candy.
As a girl raised on Resident Evil, I just really can’t accept that strong girls aren’t popular choices. Half the series protagonists are modest, sensible, empowered girls, and the series is hugely popular. Girls like Samus and Alyx Vance are always the first to come to mind in other megahit titles, but overall girls that exist solely as eye cnady are becoming rarer and rarer. Yeah, we’ve got Bayonetta and every girl to have every come out of an RPG, but to be honest, those chicks had just as much gusto as their male counterparts and just as much in your face sex appeal as many male protagonists get. It’s a double standard a lot of people overlook and I don’t think it’s fair to assume that just because a girl is hot, she’s a sex object and nothing more. Bayonetta, for example, is extremely sexualized, but she was also an incredibly strong woman. Kratos wears less clothes and sleeps with more people, but he’s a guy, so nobody cares.
I can’t even remember the last time I played a game where there was a girl whose sole purpose was to sit there and be pretty. The last game I played, Bulletstorm, oozed masculinity out of every profanity-lined pore it had and when I heard there was a girl in it, I was bracing for the worst. Turns out she was by far and a away the least stereotyped character in the entire game, which ended up being a brilliant contrast to the hugely macho pile of man-meat of a protagonist.
I apologize for the length here. I could really go on forever about how I feel about the industry’s portrayal of women, but nobody wants to hear me do that.
“I don’t think it’s fair to assume that just because a girl is hot, she’s a sex object and nothing more.”
YES!!!!
Somehow women being sexy is seen as hugely offensive and cancels out anything else she might be. Suckerpunch comes to mind.
I myself think the over the topness of DNF is funny but capture the babe makes me a little uncomfortable. not really sure why honestly.
I already admitted that there are a handful of awesome women characters, so I really don’t see where we disagree other than volume.
I actually quite like Bayonetta because she’s a rare example of a sexually-empowered (as opposed to just being sexual) woman in games. She’s tough, smart, in control of her own stuff and doesn’t take shit from anyone. The Game Overthinker did a great video on Bayonetta’s design and why she’s such an awesome character that I agree with.
And for every Bayonetta, you have a hundred half-naked eye candy chicks in fighting games. For every Alyx Vance or Ellie from Dead Space 2, you have a hundred Madisons from Heavy Rain. Good on you for finding great women characters, but I just think they shouldn’t be so hard to find.
I’m not going to tell anyone not to like Bayonetta or even that I don’t like Bayonetta, but that MovieBob review is kind of full of shit. Some months ago someone on formspring asked me to give my opinion onit via that review, so I’ll just post my response here.
Again, I have no problem with Bayonetta and I’d probably have a lot of fun playing it if I ever got to play more than just the demo, I just think that particular video is a pretty lame summary of why I should like her. Because uh… you know… let’s not let the dismissal of “half-naked eye candy chicks” make us forget that she kind of is a half naked eye candy chick (I know she’s totally clothed but her special attack is “gets naked” so I figure I’ll split the difference). I got the impression more that she was meant for to appeal to guys who are into dom-types and want to see more women that look like adults than she was meant to make women feel good about their sexuality. I mean, if that’s what she does for you that’s great and I’m not going to try to take that away from you, I’m just sayin’ “Women’s empowerment” probably wasn’t the first thing on the agenda for that design team.
Well, good points indeed and perhaps I cited his review more because he agrees with me generally rather than that he presents his case well. but I did like that he highlighted some of the ways that Bayonetta’s more obvious symbolism (the lollipops, the dancing) don’t line up with the standard ways they’re used, and the virgin/ice-queen stereotypes that get on my nerves. The fact that she intimidates him, I suppose I just like that out of schadenfreude.
And I agree that the design team probably didn’t set out with the objective of creating a sexually empowered woman; it was probably more of a happy accident. I just think that being Bayonetta looks like a hell of a lot of fun; being, say, Morrigan from Darkstalkers or Ivy from SoulCalibur, not so much.
I dislike how far he goes with the “ice queen” sentiment “she’s not looking for it from me because she doesn’t want it from anyone” Or however he put it. It just feels like more of that “if there’s no specific reason for a character to be a woman they shouldn’t be” argument I see in the entertainment industry. Why is it offensive to make a female character who doesn’t want to have sex? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the thing, but I think he used Ivy From Soul Calibur as an example. I don’t recall any point in the Soul Calibur games where she was characterized by turning down sex, so is he saying she “doesn’t want it from anyone” because she isn’t shoving her sexuality is everyone’s faces? (I mean aside from the getup, but we’re talking about her personality now) Even if she was turning people down is it “doesn’t want it from anyone” or “doesn’t want it from that guy”? If a character looks sexy they have to spend their screentime nondescriminately pusuing sex and actively making everyone aware of their sexuality? There’s no reason for that. I don’t look at Nighmare and think “why isn’t this beefy half-naked fighting game guy out looking for sex? He must be a frigid cock, what a poorly handled male character.”
Personally, I think characters that act like sex is a non issue and are more focused on killing bad guys and doing their job are just as (if not more) important than characters who are comfortable showing off their sexuality. Granted, I don’t play Ivy much so there could be vast tracks of story dedicated to her turning down suitors that I’m ignorant to, but it seems like the chief problem with her is the outfit. If she were practically proportioned and modestly dressed would he still complain about what an “Ice Queen” she is? Would he play Dragon Age 2 and say that Isabella is a more progressive character than Aveline because one is a sexy pirate who keeps inviting the hero back to her place where the other is the “unromancable” captain of the guard?
Well, speaking for myself rather than whatever ideas he has, i certainly have no problem with a woman who’s not looking for romance or sex. In fact it usually feels shoehorned in when the plot is not about that otherwise.
With Ivy I think the problem IS her outfit, but not just because it shows so much skin but because of the implications. if she’s not interested in sex or love, then that’s cool, but then that just makes her wearing that outfit seem really out of place and highlights that it’s intended to show off her body to the audience for no in-game reason. If she was characterized as sexually aggressive the outfit would still be overdone but at least it wouldn’t seem surprisingly out of place.
The other problem is that, at least to me, she doesn’t seem to have much personality. She has backstory, sure, but I’ve played her in the last three games and I still couldn’t describe her personality. “Stern”, I guess? She doesn’t even seem dispassionate, just … blank. it’s actually a bit of a disappointment because her backstory is kind of cool, it’s just her lack of characterization and bad design that ruins it. I mean, a badass alchemist who fights with a shapeshifting sword? That could have been great.
So I guess my thesis is, sexy ladies and reserved ladies are wonderful if they’re well characterized and consistent? Also that I am not particularly innovative? XD
I think that saying if a character is dressed sexy or looks sexy she should be looking for sex is the first step towards a slippery slope argument over women wearing what they want, being “dressed like they want it”, or being called sluts for being attractive. I’m not going to argue that Ivy’s costume is pretty out-there, but where do we draw the line?
And as lacking in personality Ivy is, I can’t really say she seems any more shallow than every other character in that game. I couldn’t even tell you the names of most of the characters, they’re so dry-toast uninteresting. And that’s including that one time Link showed up, 23 titles under his belt and he still doesn’t have any discernable personality beyond “saves princesses”.
I think part of Ivy’s backstory is that she took a vow of celibacy because she wanted to completely devote herself to destroying Soul Edge, or something of that sort. It really does make her outfit all the more bizarre and out of place.
Her Wikipedia and Soul Calibur Wiki pages don’t mention it at all, so for now I’ll assume it’s either a rumour or so mentioned so inconsequentially that it may as well not be canon.
I am not saying that if someone looks sexy they have to want sex or that if someone isn’t into sex then they have to dress conservatively (and if it reads that way then I am failing to communicate my thoughts well).
To be clear, when I think of Ivy’s problematic outfit, I am thinking of this one. I … don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that wearing that would put her life in danger in a fight due to it hampering her movements. Her sexual interests are unimportant except that if she’s willing to risk her life to look sexy, then if they don’t give some reason for it, then it just breaks the fourth wall and looks like nothing but a marketing ploy.
If she was wearing something that was sexy and revealing but looked like she could fight in it, then I’d have no objection. Hell, in the last game I made her an alt outfit that still shows a lot of cleavage but at least looks like it will stay on when she fights.
I dunno, I think some of the SC characters have personality, but yeah, I’d agree that having little personality is not just Ivy’s problem in that game. And Link is just a hopeless case.
As I have said many times, I’m not arguing that I’vy’s suit is practical in any way. Because it’s about as ridiculous as it gets. I’m just contesting calling a character an “ice Queen” because they don’t pursue or talk about sex. My qualm is more with MovieBob’s essay than anything, which has always struck me as poorly researched, worded, and thought out. As you said yourself, if she was dressed more appropriately there would be no controversy, so it seems like in that particular case he is making an argument for Bayonetta and against Ivy in the form of “sexy woman who wants sex=empowering for women” and “sexy woman who doesn’t want sex=Poorly handled Ice Queen”
I think as soon as you draw a line in the sand that says “this is exactly how sexy a woman is allowed to look before you are required to make them actively express how much sex they want/are having” you’re going to run into problems.
That said, I do not contest Ivy being a pinup character designed to get guys to buy Soul Calibur at all. I just think Bayonetta was designed with the exact same intent (well, not to buy Soul Calibur, but you know) and it’s ridiculous to claim one is less of a pinup or more empowering than the other. If we’re pretending what women want to see had anything to do with either of them, I’m sure there are just as many women who are pleased that a sexy character in a ridiculous outfit doesn’t spend time fretting about her sexuality otherwise as there are women who are pleased that a sexy character in a ridiculous outfit sends out subtle imagery that she wants to be the dominant one in bed.
Well, that’s fine then, I don’t feel strongly enough about his essay to defend it, I only offered it off-handedly because it highlighted some positive things about the character.
And I don’t disagree that Bayonetta was designed to appeal to straight guys rather than women, I just think the end result left me feeling a lot better than most pinup characters.
Any person who views Duke Nukem as a legitimate threat to any sort of decency clearly does not understand the concept behind Duke Nukem. It’s satirical. Everyone knows you don’t slap babes in real life. The “video games give people ideas” crowd is a tired thing, now.
I don’t believe video games cause people to violent. There is, however, a legitimate claim to be made that it encourages the all-too-prevalent anti-woman gamer mindset.
This subset of gamers are probably the same people who will call others gay/black/Jewish/anything until they find something that gets under people’s skin. If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard someone called “fucking fag gay feeder” in League of Legends, I could afford tuition, a car, and a lifetime’s supply of gasoline.
People who do this generally aren’t actually patriarchal hetero nazi zealots, but typically troll because they find it to be an acceptable form of humour (even if it is at someone else’s expense).
Changing gears a bit: Clearly there needs to be a mod for this game that has Duke slapping a hysterical Fenix in a bikini!
I am a proponent of this.
a friend of mine actually encourages this. His online character is a black, gay, Jewish guy. With a lisp. He spends most of the game sniping ppl… yes, he is a gigantic dick. PS- I third that mod
I remain fairly convinced there is a large difference between trying to get under someone’s skin while playing and sending picture of your dick, demanding pictures and/or sending explicit sexual propositions to everyone with a remotely female sounding username.
Yeah, I don’t think that the game is going to make kids drop their controllers and go off to commit some domestic abuse, but it does encourage people to find that sort of behaviour funny. I can take a joke, but I can see how it might go too far in this case. Like I told another person earlier, most of the real life harassment of women I’ve seen (girls getting grabbed or heckled by guys driving down the street or surrounded on the subway or what have you) was done by groups of young guys who think they’re being comical. While that sort of thing might not encourage people to go out and commit serious assault or anything like that it is kind of encouraging that fratboy mindset.
Like I said, I’m not going to make a judgement call until we see how they pull it off, ’cause, yeah, I can see potential for funny. I just don’t think people are out of line or can’t take a joke if they find it insulting.
Excellent comic as always Squidy.
Reading this reminded me of how long I’ve been waiting for the new DOUK game.
Also, most of these comments are TL;DR. Good luck with that.
Well, you can already see the double standard somewhat in action, if you’re an anime fan. The “tsundere” is a kind of female love interest (yes, this is considered attractive by some) who reacts with comical violence to the slightest provocation. Well-done examples make up for it with sweet and endearing shyness when confronted about how they “really” feel, but most examples are just VIOLENT. They’ll slap a guy they like for somebody else making a lewd comment, punch the guy in the face if he walks in on them while they’re changing (even if it’s not his fault – like they are in the wrong room, the floor of the room above broke and dropped him in…), and kick him into orbit via the gonads if THEY walk in on HIM while HE is changing. Usually with an accompanying scream of “PERVERT!”
This is all treated as comedy. Haha, the guy got beaten up for perving on the girl, or just being seen to. Imagine if the genders were inverted, and a guy punched out a girl for walking in on him while he’s changing. Or kicked her into orbit when HE walks in on HER while SHE is changing.
Yeah, nobody’s really going to call that “funny.”
(I’ll note I’m less offended and more fascinated by this. One of my favorite mental games when watching any show is to consider what happens if you invert the genders, change the names so the inversion isn’t completely obvious, and just re-write the script as faithfully as possible without changing anything else. Just to see what cultural expectations get really WEIRD all of a sudden.)
Notice no one complains about this. And these guys aren’t fighting back, either.
Double Standards. What’s not to love?
Plenty of people complain, and they are fully within their rights to do so. And there are people on both sides of the fence who don’t like those kind of characters, I could find you a good number of women who think girls that act like that are needlessly bitchy, just like you can find plenty of guys who think a dude who slaps strippers is a douchebag. And those characters can still have their place, it’s all about context and application. Helga in Hey Arnold makes it work because they don’t play it up like it’s socially acceptable for her to act like that, it’s just a facet of her character and she has to deal with the consequences of it. It all depends on how the story decides to spin the character.
These characters wouldn’t even be acceptable in children’s shows if the genders were reversed.
Could you imagine a male character in a kid’s show that had ‘beats on girls’ as a ‘facet of his character’?
The plain truth of it is, female-on-male violence is not the taboo that male-on-female violence is.
There are characters who have “picks on girls” as facets of their character. Using Hey Arnold as an example again because I’ve been watching a lot of it lately, Helga is a bully but Harold is too. He picks on girls too. Both characters get put in their place when they push around their peers. I don’t really watch anime so I can’t speak for the examples you’re thinking of, but Japan is known fow having pretty conservative views of how women are expected to behave, so it’s probably more in line with what Sasuga was saying.
But, like I said, it is completely your right to complain about any kind of inequality. Obviously if you’re saying something about it people ARE upset about the imbalance, they just aren’t as loud at the moment. It comes across as pretty ignorant to suggest that people upset about one kind of inequality are invalidated because you’re upset by a different kind of inequality. I’ll suggest that maybe there’s the possibility that people are touchier about male-on-female violence in our present society because there are still thriving nations outside the Western world where it is completely socially acceptable and even expected for men to beat and mutilate their wives if they act out, with no gender reversed equivalent to that, but that’s pretty depressing stuff to get into on a comic making fun of a Duke Nukem game.
I dunno. Hang around reddit’s men’s rights subreddit long enough and you’ll get the sense that our society thinks it’s acceptable for women to beat and mutilate men who ‘act up’. Just because women can hide behind their victimhood.
Lorena Bobbit comes to mind. Another recent one was a woman who ran over her boyfriend and didn’t spend a day in jail for it.
There are as far as I know, no documented cases of husbands trying to escape from their abusive wives, being caught and dragged off into the wild by the abusive wife and her friends and having their noses cut off as punishment for stepping out of line, with no negative legal reprecussions coming to the wives when the husbands come forward about the situation. However the same issue gender swapped has recent photographic documentation in certain countries. People on reddit may make outlandish claims that people deserve this or that, but that doesn’t really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. I’ve seen Pokemon fanatics on Reddit saying I should be murdered because I drew a picture of Giovanni punching a Mewtwo. People on the internet say a lot of irrational, poorly conceived things. Fortunately, laws and social expectations protect people from the sort of behaviour prevalent online.
I’m saying if you come here on this particular site talking about that kind of social inequality, you aren’t likely going to find many people arguing that there’s no problem with that sort of situation. Again, just because a person has strong opinions about a certain issue, it doesn’t mean they plan on devaluing the issues other people care about to get their point across.
Admittedly, this isn’t identical to what you’re talking about. But to me it speaks to something deeply wrong with our society. Possibly just as wrong as that society.
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/04/jasmine_cotter_18_wont_spend_a.php
She got in a fight with her boyfriend, says he spit in her face and taunted her, she ran him over.
Won’t spend a day in jail.
Perhaps I keep more rational company than you, but most people I know would consider that a failure on the part of the justice system. Many of the commenters on the article you linked seem to feel the same way. Of course, if you’re citing reddit as your source for the state of our society’s attitude towards gender politics, I’ll direct you to 4chan’s /b/ board for the counterpoint. Internet communities are funny like that.
It may have been a failure on the part of the justice system, but the fact that it happened speaks volumes. And maybe should make us think twice before we get on our ‘morally superior to heathens’ high horse.
There is ugliness in our society too. And the ugliness in theirs does not just stop with how they treat women. We just have particular buttons we like pressed in the west so that’s what we report on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
I’m not on a morally superior high horse and you seem to be the only one who called anyone a heathen… You seem to be inventing prejudices to claim that I have for the sake of dragging on the conversation.
I’m just saying that because there are countries where it’s socially acceptable to treat people like that, it’s a subject that ends up being more fresh in people minds. There is plenty of gender related voilence in every country in the world, just as there is religious or racially motivated violence. I’m not going to get into a pissing match over who can dig up more accounts of abuse on which subject because that seems like more of the same attempts to invalidate one person’s suffering with another person’s suffering. “Don’t complain about your country flooding because mine’s in a drought” and all that.
I’m not accusing you, specifically, of anything. Moral myopia is pretty common and usually starts when we start thinking ‘they’re pure evil’. That’s what Marlon Brando was getting at with his quote about Ronald Regan, I think.
Usually the minute we start seeing the world in black and white, we’re wrong and we’re wrong because we’re missing something in our own world view.
Exactly.
MRAs are the equivalent of radical extremist feminists (who usually despise sex-positive third wave feminists), and hanging around either group is going to give you a drastically skewed impression of the world. Being anti-sexism doesn’t require being anti-man, because sexism hurts men, too.
But the double standard there exists because of the idea that women are too weak to actually harm a man. It’s not a stereotype that favors women, it’s one that reinforces the idea that they don’t need to be taken seriously.
Ahahah, yeah, that too.
It favors women when they don’t end up in jail for equivalent abuse.
And I’d go out on a limb and guess no one you’re arguing with here thinks that’s not a problem worth caring about.
The short-term benefit conferred to a small amount of abusive women does not outweigh the damage it does to the rest of us.
You’re right.
Now I wish the rest of society would see that.
A benefit that might be at the grave expense of another… and damage far worse than a little vocal or visual sexism. The idea that it’s merely a “small amount” is a point to be argued as well.
If a huge amount of women are getting away with abuse in the name of female, then yeah, I’m against that. I don’t LIKE women being viewed as weak.
“in the name of female weakness”, I meant.
I hate Akane from Ranma 1/2 beyond my ability to rationally express because of her tsundere nature.
If we’re going by anime archetypes, gamine > tsundere any day of the week.
Ah yes, her…
I’d say that Akane and Sakura from Naruto are the 2 manga characters that anger me more than any other.
The tsundere archetype isn’t exclusive to females though. There are male tsunderes believe or not, who display the same characteristics that make female tsunderes attractive/aggravating (depending on who you ask). The best example might be Chiaki from Nodame Cantabile. He likes to whack and yell at the main girl a lot. (If you thought, “OMG! A guy hitting a girl?” you’re enforcing a double standard, just saying.) It’s just like the other tsunderes, just reverse gender. How many of the “abused”seriously get injured? Slapstick knows no gender. :)
It really depends on each character though. Some of them are really endearing while others are just horrifyingly abusive. The worst one forced the poor guy to wash her underwear and whips him constantly….and Akane really does have some issue, haha.
Not that I don’t agree with what you said. I really do dislike female characters who are just downright mean and abusive for little reason and it does hold the stigma of female to male violence is non-serious and just “cute”.
Thanks for the extremely reasonable take on the situation, Ceolasquid. :3
Poor Fenix. I’ve never even played his game but now I’m hoping we see more of him (err, as in appearances in the comic, that is, not the full Monty).
Coela, you just opened a flaming can of rage-starter on your reading base… well done. The “Capture the babe” mini game sounds like it could either be really really fun, or really really lame… I’m gonna have to rent Duke Nukam and try that out.
I’m now going to go slap a ho and wing her over my shoulder while running back to my apartment IRL. Just try and stop me you feminists. :)
I figure as long as people can be level headed it doesn’t necessarily need to be ragestarter. I’m prepared to step in if people start getting too over the top.
So long as people are…? Think about it, it’s going to be a rage starter if it isn’t already. Just sayin’.
People seem to be handling themselves pretty civilly so far. Maybe I’m jinxing it but saying that, but, you know, needlessly hateful and vulgar comments can be deleted.
The third panel cracks me up to no end. He’s not even hanging on to her anymore; she’s just draped over his shoulder, like Frieda’s cat from Snoopy, while he adjusts his glasses and so on.
Random tidbit, were you aware that Cliff Blezinski from Epic was at Gearbox playing Duke this past weekend? either you knew this or your comic just has really good timing
Just coincidence.
I know many people have said this before me, but I’ve got to chime in on the discussion. Duke Nukem is a walking parody. He’s not even a person. He’s more like a steak with sunglasses. Duke Nukem is beef that walks like a man. Unless the guys making the game screw it up terribly, I’m assuming this will be more of the same type of humor Duke Nukem became famous because of.
Oh, and on a side note, I love how Duke doesn’t take his shades off to read the letter. That was great. Makes me think they’re prescription sunglasses, for some reason.
Ah, I figured it out. I thought they were prescription because he adjusts them before reading the letter. I only ever see people with actual glasses do that, myself included.
That’s why I’m not set to dismiss the whole thing. I mean partially because it’s a fraction of a fration of the game, partially because it’s the kind of thing you have to expect out of a game like this, but mostly because if we haven’t had a chance to play it we can’t see whether it’s making fun of guys like Duke or just validating guys who think it’s funny to heckle women. I’d be lying if I said I’ve never written storied about barbarians who go around collecting booty babes like baseball cards, I mean, just the fact that the first line of this comic has Duke wearing a bikini girl like an accessory or that I’ve drawn Kratos comics where he calls women “talking vaginas” should imply that I’m not completely humourless.
I like how put it! Exactly! Duke isn’t a person! If the women in his game are stereotypical, sexualized, empty-headed females, then Duke himself is the male equivalent!
Wait, when we talking slapping, are we talking affectionate and playful or kinky and fully consensual or like a parent disciplining their kid? Or worse? Because type 1, I can say that anyone protesting this is going overboard. Type 2, anyone protesting is still overboard. Type 3 maaaaybe we got something here, but this is Duke Nukem. He’s a parody. Take him too seriously and you ruin everything. As for the “or worse”, the protesters have got something there, but I highly doubt the spanking will fall into this category.
As for Feenix, that is just terrifying…
I thought the hot girl asylum was going to be a continuing storyline. : (
Coel has an excellent point; whether the mini-game directs humor at slapping ass or the mentality that leads fratboy meat-heads to slap ass is pretty much the deciding factor for me.
I can’t really say I agree with the argument that “it’s Duke’s character, it’s what he does!” like he’s some kind of unprogrammable robot. It’s not just here though, it’s any character who’s being called out on something. A character’s self and actions is completley up to the creator. If Duke stops slapping “bitches” in games, that’s part of his charcater now.
That’s a great point. Also, Ceolasquid lampoons exaggerated masculinity in a very affectionate way without being offensive, so it’s not like it’s an impossible goal.
Once again, your comics make my week!
I think if Commander Badass hit the nail on the head any harder it would have come out the other side of the planet and shot into space.
How long do you guys think it’ll take before the community makes a “Capture the Gear” mod?
I love you characterization of the Duke.
I’m out of the loop when it comes to sexim and video game controversy. ^_^;
Guys, remember these things:
1) that the slap isn’t to the face, it’s to the ass.
2) It’s a gentle ass to make the girl FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE, not scare her or worse.
3) Feminist are stating that the whole game is about womanizing. They can’t be SO WRONG!!! The game is about saving the girls from the invasion, get your facts straight!
4) Duke slapping Fenix to the face makes it look like Duke slaps the women to the face also, which isn’t and will never be true. It’s sending the wrong message.
I like that you’re under the impression it’s not degrading to slap a woman on the ass. Or that being slapped on the ass makes women feel more comfortable. Or that saving women from aliens means a game doesn’t exploit women. I mean, I know the minigame is a joke and all, but if that’s the kind of attitude you go out and face the world with your’re uh… kind of the type of person people are worried is going to get the wrong impression from it…
But just because you asked, I’ll make sure Duke is slapping Fenix’s ass next time.
Please walk into a police station and grab a female officer’s ass. I promise you she’ll be comfortable and won’t retaliate.
Oh, how I loved that comment right there. He really should… and ask someone to video tape him as he does so. It could be the next super viral video.
It’ll be more viral than Rebecca Black’s Friday (About Time!)
I’d be up for the game as long as I get to wear a Gears of War bikini and I can smack the guys on the ass too.
I’ll play if the guys are also wearing Gears of War bikinis.
“I’ll just put it out there that where hulking 80′s macho men slapping strippers might not sit well with the public”
I’d be more worried about it not sitting well with the Bouncers. They tend to frown on that; in the grab your ass and roughly toss you out in the street kind of sense. To be fair; everyone tells me working the Chippendales is a lot worse. I think the capture the babe protest crowd ought to look at how unruly THEIR kind is in the same exact situation.
And when they make a game about jumping on Chippendales people will complain about that too. And then everyone will be complaining equally. And then we can have both games without any conflict of interest.
I really want to make this game.
Purely for TEH LULZ
CHIPPENDALES: ESCAPE FOM ESTROGEN
At the risk of sounding overly cynical, I think pretty much the whole point of Capture the Babe mode (as opposed to a standard CTF) is purely to farm up some free publicity from all the sites saying it objectifies and/or degrades women, and from all the gamer sites covering the other sites complaining about it. I guess from Gearbox’s perspective “That game that objectifies women” beats “That game that’s been promising it’ll be awesome since the 90s and is now just the punchline to a very long running gag”.
On the subject of capture/slap the babe itself, I can’t really understand why people are making such a big deal about it. That is to say I can definitely understand why people find it offensive, but unless they seriously believe that it’s going to influence people’s attitudes and behaviour in real life it doesn’t seem worth the fuss, and if they DO believe it’ll affect people in reality then I’d hope they’d be more concerned about all these people being unable to tell reality from simulation than about this one specific instance. Certainly there are people who believe the latter, but rather less than have gone on record protesting this specific case.
Ultimately, yes it’s crass, yes it’s tasteless, but this is Duke Nukem, and if there’s one thing you CAN always count on Duke for it’s to embody both of those things, and it seems pretty empty to protest this one example of crass tastelessness.
They aren’t pulling some EA YOUR MOM WONT LIKE THIS bullshit, it isn’t about being objective or sexist, its about portraying something that Duke would do, in one of his crazy fucking mannerisms.
I think (at least in my case) it’s not so much this is an influence in itself so much as another straw on a very big pile. That camel’s straining as it is.
I love Fenix. The…bra (?) is gold.
I would totally go for a mini-game in which we slap him in that outfit.
I bet Kratos and Pyramid Head would be great at this game…
Seriously, for the majority of people, what happens in video games stays in video games. Or at least it should. It makes me laugh how the media kinda just picks and chooses which bit of controversy to pounce on and which to just let slide by. I’ve definately seen and done much worse things in video games than this. I would say I’m more upset by animal abuse in video games than I am by sexism/questionable domestic abuse, but that’s just my opinion.
Shit like this makes me worried for Duke Nukem Forever. It’s not that I’m outraged, but all the trailers and info they’ve released seem to be pushing the “please be outraged!” angle so hard I’m forced to suspect there just isn’t much more to the game.
I can’t be the only one who saw the “ha ha poop” gameplay trailer and had a sudden, crystal-clear vision of a 65% Metacritic average appear in his head.
Dat 7th panel. Both Duke’s expression and Fenix’s visage are hilarious! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
This is why I follow this webcomic :D I’m easily pleased like that. Keep it up Coelasquid!
am i the only one who knows that the slap in the face part was a mistake on there part and that they really ment slap on the ass? (i could be wrong tho and also i dont know if someone else pointid this out but all you people are makeing way to much a fus over this if people can be cool with playing a game that has a child get impaled by his sister that was being controld by a alian (forgot the name of the game but had a indian and his ghost eagle save the world inside a alian ship) then im shure slaping a women would be timid in others eyes
I think you’re talking about Prey, if I’m reading your venture into the English language correctly, which I believe was actually brought to us by the Duke Nukem folks at 3D Realms.
Just because people have done something more controversial doesn’t mean everything else gets to pass without scrutiny. There’s a video game where you play as Colonel Custer trying to rape a native woman (Scroll down to “Custer’s Revenge”), and I’m sure that pushed even more people’s buttoons back in the days of 8bit. That doesn’t mean that every game not about genocide and rape is acceptable just by virtue of not being about genocide and rape, because once upon a time someone managed to get a video game about genocide and rape out.
not gonna debait on this just saying that pointless rants that change nothing are best left to the hippies and anyone on youtube
*marvels*
You really DO exist!
*eyes herp incredulously*
You don’t get out much, do you?
I’ve been on a strict diet. No reading the comments on youtube or news articles.
Also, I guess that I’ve been mistakenly assuming intelligent comic = intelligent fanbase.
It’s been suggested before, but I’m going to repeat it; I suggest an alternative capture-the-hunk.
In the circumstances, though, I don’t think it should be a musclebound stallion, but rather an effeminate prettyboy, so as to better portray the equality between the two genders in the situation. Thoughts?
You could always cut the difference and go for one of those super-toned Square-Enix bishonen. ;) Some of ’em are even used to being carried over the shoulder like so.
Though… if there was a Capture the Hunk mode, could we play as Duchess Nukem? =D
I am pleased to see that others are also thinking of this. It is clearly the best response to the whole thing that Gearbox can have. Obviously. Yes.
However, for parody value, I think it should be played straight, a direct reversal, like what we observe here in the comic.
As a bonus, I’m certain that the voice acting outtakes will be entirely hilarious.
Can I just say that I love how I can come to this website every week, read a beautifully drawn and hilarious comic, and then read an insightful, well-reasoned, and usually polite discussion of important societal issues in the comments?
Seriously, you guys are the best.
Until I start seeing creepy,obsessive ‘jiggle physics’ applied to male avatar’s crotches, I’ll just keep believing video games designers are just sexist, snickering manboys. I can’t be the only one whose noticed it’s Ken Doll Land out there.
I’m all for toilet humour, but I guess I grew out of the Duke Nukem style of it, years ago. Like ‘Family Guy’, DN mistakes simple Bad Taste for edginess, and is too busy patting itself on the back for getting a rise out of very easily-offended targets to bother to remember there still needs to be a joke involved, with an equally good setup and payoff.
Beyond that, hopefully, layers. “HA HA I HAVE A POOPIE GUN!” isn’t enough. “HA HA I HAVE A POOPIE GUN MANUFACTURED BY 3D REALMS! IT’S FULLY-LOADED WITH 12 YEARS OF GEORGE BROUSSARD’S BULLS**T PROMISES!”
implying the steroids haven’t destroyed their crotches, see you’ve had ‘jiggle physics’ all along
NAMCO and Konami have both made games with jiggle fixes in the crotched. It is DAMN CREEPY to me, being a male.
Both those damn companies go overboard with the physics. A single step or movement doesn’t make a breast slap the woman in the face.
which games
list them immediately
My girlfriend wants me to let everyone here know that she thinks the art style is really good and that the Commander and Sarah Jones are a cute couple or somethin’.
Also that Jared and Mr. Fish “are awesome together.”
I just want to know how Duke convinced Marcus to wear that bikini in public.
Duke has seniority in this organization, I suppose.
There’s a thin line between poking fun at sexist and racist attitudes and celebrating them with a wink and nod under the cover of irony or parody. Time will tell if the Duke Nukem team is actually capable of pulling off the former.
The Commander displaying the faulty reasoning behind everyone yelling “But why can MEN be hit and not LADIES!” is pretty boss though. Thanks Coelasquid!
I’m glad you played DA2, because Aveline is the best. (Her and Varric, anyway.)
Having Aveline and Isabela in your party results in some truly wonderful dialogue, especially during the third act of the game.
Comparison in the comic is a little off. Fenix doesn’t really need the bra. The women are in standard beach attire, meanwhile he’s being forced to crossdress, which of course makes the situation feel a bit more “complaint worthy”. Just being a muscle man in a speedo would be an accurate comparison.
As far as “Capture the Hunk” mode or something? I wouldn’t care at all if they did so. I would find it amusing, actually. If only the game gets modding capabilities…
See, I considered that, but I figured it was only fair to put it on. After all, girls have their nipples covered so if Fenix’s aren’t he’s showing more skin.
To be fair, it’s not actually a bikini top so much as a strip of fabric wrapped around his torso to cover his nipples for the sake of equality. For all we know they just unraveled one of his bandanas.
Mostly feels like you just threw it in for a laugh rather than for actual equality, but nobody should really take a comic strip too seriously anyway. All in good fun.
It may seem like that, but it was, in fact, something I seriously considered. Funnies is hard buisiness.
I like that you put so much thought into it. For instance, I could imagine the very same people up in arms about the game mode complaining that you’ve drawn these bikini-clad women apparently being perfectly willing to take part in the situation as they seem fine either perched on Duke or standing around waiting for a resolution.
You’re able to look at both sides of an issue and make it the absurd caricature that it often is. It’s amazing.
The announcement of this gamemode makes DNF all the more appealing to me because since they first started releasing the recent trailers and other stuff about the game I’ve been eagerly wanting to see how far they’ll go with stuff that’s “out of the norm”.
Seriously, what other game in the next 20 years is going to let you throw shit at aliens while you spout off cheesy one-liners? Duke will always be Duke, who is BUILT out of offensive subjects.
I can’t tell you how many times I gave the hookers 100$ bills in DN3D. Even then people called it crude. That was my childhood.
I’m reminded of the game “Fat Princess”, which apparently offended a few people because the titular princesses are basically sitting macguffins that sit on their useless rumps and get stuffed with cake so that they balloon up and become more difficult for the opposing team to cart back to their base. Apparently it was considered offensive to women with eating disorders.
I’m amused by the fourth and fifth panels when the silver chick and the pink chick magically switch places.
I’m not sure they did. Silver Bikini Chick is standing behind Duke and to his right in both panels. The only question is where Pink Bikini Chick has gone in the fifth panel; she could be entirely blocked from view by Duke or Fenix, or she could’ve wandered out of frame so as not to interfere with our ability to “read” the action in the panel.
Maybe she returned to her astrophysics class at the local community college, I don’t know.
the pink suit one was standing directly behind Duke, it was cluttered, so you can assume she sat down or stepped out of frame.
Feminazi’s, teehee. I don’t know why, that word makes me giggle.
I’m pretty sure most people know it’s a game and that people in real life are not going to copy it. I do have faith in humanity. xP
However I can also understand why people start making fuss about it. Even if the roles were turned (Capture the Hunk) I’d still frown at it. Humiliation and slapping don’t sit well with me for any gender.
I am currently of the opinion that Gearbox announced “Capture the Babe” just to spur people into drawing Marcus Fenix in a bikini.
That’s a hell of a gambit right there. But it paid off!
I’ll admit, when OXM said you give the “babe” in Capture the Babe a “reassuring slap that’s more goofy than offensive”, I was a little worried. Not about the actual slap, (but unprecedented violence of any kind is stupid to me, no matter what the person’s sex is) but because Duke Nukem of all people would be slapping her. Sure Duke’s a fan of the strippers, but the claims of misogyny towards him I’ve always found to be ignorant and showing what people do and do not own a dictionary. Until I heard of the slap, then things were crossing the line, even by Duke’s standards.
Then Randy Pitchford (CEO of Gearbox Software) explained that Duke only/”only” gives the babe a love-pat/spank. Then the whole thing went from line-crossing to amusing. I can understand if you’re still kind of uncomfortable with the mechanic, though. But if you’re flat-out offended or, in Shelby Knox’s case, trying to get the gamed banned from Wal-Mart over an optional game-mode really seems like an over-reaction. It’s sort of like the interactive turd; it’s there, but you can choose to ignore it completely and for the whiteboard/Dukematch mode.
And just to show I’m not a hypocrite, if there were an optional version of CTB called Capture the Hunk, where Duke spanks EDF soldiers or other Dukes while they’re slung over his shoulder, I would find it hilarious. Why? Because there are two things that Duke does best: Hyperbole, and parody. You’re not supposed to take this game at face value. The developers aren’t saying women are inferior via Capture the Babe. Rather, they’re saying that a woman makes for a more interesting flag and that Duke spanking a flag would look weird.
Unrelated, but why exactly why do people consider Duke Nukem to be misogynistic? At the most basic level, he’s the exact opposite when you consider the lengths he goes to just to save women. I mean, Duke was kind of pissed when the aliens invaded, fairly angry when they drank his beer, but when they took the women (again) well…
http://cdn.gearboxsoftware.com/dukenukemforever.com/assets/audio/DUKE_Map03_Line_04.mp3
The first time Duke Nukem has ever expressed audible rage at anything I can recall. Over the women being kidnapped. Misogynistic how? Not saying you think Duke is, Coela, just that I don’t understand when people say he is.
That scene in Airplane where everyone’s lining up to slap the hysterical woman? Hilaaaaaaaarious!
This whole thing is a bit of a grey area, the way I see it.
Is it sexist? Undoubtedly. Duke Nukem IS sexist. Making a PC Duke Nukem game would almost be like making a non-violent Carmageddon game. Women in Duke Nukem games are damsels in distress at best, and Duke is a stereotypical macho. Changing that would be a disservice to the character.
The issue then becomes a different one. If Duke Nukem games are meant to be sexist, why make them at all? Money is the easy answer. The Duke Nukem franchise is extremely well-known for better or for worse, and in today’s entertainment industry a famous name means more than anything. But apart from that, the question is a moral one. Though morality and money rarely mix well, we could ask ourselves whether it is morally justifyable to create a game that features and indeed glorifies an extremely sexist character?
To me, the answer to that question is clear, because of what the character is. Duke Nukem is a parody through and through. He’s a one-liner spouting superman, killing aliens with one hand while tipping strippers with his other. He’s the uber-macho, a walking personification of male chauvinism taken to an extreme where it becomes nigh-on impossible to take him seriously as anything but a parody. This is simply everything he does, everything he says, and everything he IS as a character.
Is it funny? I won’t make that judgement, since humor is highly subjective and I can understand why many people will not find it funny at all. But I do think it’s abundantly clear that it is all very tongue-in-cheeck, and that there’s no real malice or evil intent behind it all. If people want to be offended by a joke that’s their problem, but I don’t want to live in a world where you can’t make a joke because it might offend someone, even if it’s a bad joke.
The “Capture the Babe” mode is undoubtedly sexist and unnecessary, but it’s also totally in-line with what duke has always been and will hopefully always be.
If there was a feministic equivalent to Duke Nukem then I wouldn’t mind a sexist Duke existing. Problem is that no game company would ever make it because it would be too ‘sexist’ and the only market that ‘matters’ for them (aka young boys from 13 to 25) wouldn’t buy it.
I long for the day when we get Daisy Nukem, a rough talking, beer-swilling, no-nonsense action hero rescuing.topless hunks from the alien menace.
I really do.
I see what you did there, heh, Daisy Duke.
I fully agree, but (unfortunately, in some ways) video games are a business, and businesses care about money first. A Daisy Nukem probably will never exist, for the same reason a Duke Nukem equivalent capturing and ass-slapping handsome men will never exist.
‘Hardcore’ video gamers are stereotypically sexist and homophobic, and none of the major publishers are willing to piss off a significant part of their fanbase in order to make a statement. And one only has to look at Bioware to realize that even those who do try to make a statement only tend to piss off people on both sides of the spectrum. As recently pointed out (by the guy from Penny Arcade, of all people), it got ‘straight gamers’ (whatever that means… I’m a ‘straight gamer’ and I had absolutely no problems with romancing Zevran in DAO) up in arms because they felt underappreciated, and it made gay gamers upset because one of the characters was gay and liked having sex, which apparently sent a bad message about gay people.
I dunno. It seems impossible to make a videogame that touches on such subjects, be it the over-the-top tongue-in-cheek way of Duke Nukem or the semi-realistic all-inclusive way of Dragon Age without pissing off a lot of people. Why video games seem to be so much more the target of such controversy than books or movies dealing with similar subject matter I don’t know, but I do increasingly get the feeling that most of these things are more about attention-craving and group-thinking than people actually being hurt in some way.
DA2 having (potentially – they were really bi) gay men in the game was critiqued by a vocal minority. Most of the fans either liked the inclusion or didn’t care or didn’t find it worrisome at all.
I understand what you’re saying, but “X and Y is just what we’re going to see because of the market” is a slippery slope argument that lets far too many people off the hook for crappy content.
“Why video games seem to be so much more the target of such controversy than books or movies dealing with similar subject matter I don’t know”
Because they’re (relatively) new, and because they’re interactive. It feels more personal when you’re the one acting out scenes in a story instead of passively watching it – a significant barrier between you and the protagonist is erased when you’re the one driving the action.
There’s actually a pretty interesting post Over here regarding people having more scrutiny for visual representations of something than written representations. I’d recommend it to people interested on the subject, I enjoyed it and thought it articulated some good points.
And I’d have to say there’s some truth to it. I read my first Stephen King book, Pet Semetary, when I was ten years old. The book has some extremely graphic depictions of sex and violence, including the detailed description of a toddler being hit by a truck and brutally dismembered as he was dragged under it for a length comparable to that of a football field. And at ten years old, no one questioned me reading this. Actually, I think I was probably congratulated for reading something with that many pages while the other kids were taking out things like Babysitter’s Club and California diaries. I was not allowed to watch Steven King movies nearly until around the time I graduated high school and moved out. My parents just didn’t want us watching stuff like that, I still feel awkward watching a movie with a sex scene in it in my parent’s house. But they were fine with me reading about it. And when I finally saw the Pet Semetary movie, I realized that the violence was EXTREMELY censored from what was written in the book. Taking that same scene with the toddler being hit by the truck for example, in the movie I believe the track just cleanly flips over and squashes him, so you see nothing. And honestly, as intense as that scene is in the book, it just seems much more tasteless to actually show a realistic visual depiction of a little boy being ground apart by a truck than it is to write about it.
I do agree with you that games probably face more scrutiny than movies because they’re more interactive and new. I do remember when I was a kid shows like Power Rangers were getting a lot of flack because kids were/could emulate it. Even cartoons, I remember listening to some radio show where a woman was talking about how children shouldn’t be allowed to watch Bugs Bunny cartoons because it will make them more violent, and how you need to “take your child aside and explain what would really happen if the coyote had an anvil drop on him”, but you don’t see much of that anymore. I don’t know if it’s because kids cartoons have neutered down the violence enough these days or people have found new targets to complain about, or some combination of both.
“it made gay gamers upset because one of the characters was gay and liked having sex, which apparently sent a bad message about gay people.”
I believe the issue was something like the man was Bi and/or a fuck it if it moves sort which is actually a horrendously negative and common stereotype associated with gay and bisexual people. A whole lot of people feel gay people are more sexual (and therefore always less moral than ‘Good Upstanding Heterosexuals™’) and all bisexuals are untrustworthy nymphomaniacs.
See it’s perfectly cool to be inclusive, but when you do it with stereotypes traditionally used to keep an oppressed or marginalised group down you shouldn’t be surprised if they don’t thank you for it.
That said, I rather loved the response to people whinging about Bioware making things not outright catering exclusively to the straight white male gamer.
And will note: new media of any form will always be regarded as the source of the apocalypse until a newer media is born. Once upon a time the printing press was the devil, now it’s the internet and video games and no one cares if the printing press really is evil and leading everyone to sex, violence, and other ‘immoral’ activities.
I’m going to assume by the way you’re talking that you didn’t actually play the game or make an effort to verify your information. All of the romancable characters in Dragon Age 2 that you don’t end up paying money for in an expansion of some sort are bisexual. Of them, one male character will make the first move if you have been encouraging a relationship with him, one male character is slow to trust you and will end the romance with you if you pursue another character, one female has a “fuck it if it moves” attitude parallel to the male romanceable elf rogue in the first game, and one female character is doting and awkward.
In the first Dragon age there were also four romantic options, a heterosexual male, a bisexual male, a heterosexual female, and a bisexual female. Of them, at least in the experience of my roommates and I when we played the game, the bisexual male and heterosexual female were the easiest to get in bed with (the bisexual male was an Antonio-Banderas style elf rogue who would flirt with everyone and the heterosexual female had a “well, we’re both going to have a good time, aren’t we” attitude about it), and the hardest were the heterosexual male and bisexual female (the heterosexual male was a virgin and uncomfortable talking about sex, and the bisexual female would only sleep with you if you were committed to her and stopped chasing the other romanceable characters).
It’s almost like the characters have carefully constructed personalities that focus on their personal morality and situations that made them into the people they are more than their sexuality or something.
I didn’t play it, haven’t the money yet so I really wouldn’t know, I am just recalling the complaints- I was entirely aware all the romance options in Dragon Age 2 were bisexual.
But I’m having trouble seeing what Dragon Age 2 has to do with the complaint being discussed. (Aside from confirming some missing words or stray additional word in my comment that may or may not fuck up the meaning.)
Since what I was trying to get at was simply elaborating on what the complaint about Zevran actually was. That being (now that I’ve actually looked it up rather than relying on my terrible memory and frankly shitacular typo laden wording) that as a character he was fine but as a bisexual romance option he was seen as perpetuating a common stereotype associated with bisexuals rather than simply ‘liking having sex apparently sending a bad message about gay people.’
In case the fact there’s a female version of the same character type in DA2 was the reason for bringing up DA2, at a wild guess the reason there’d be minimal complaints from the PC crowd applying the same character traits to a woman is society is still shitty enough that it’s a pretty spectacularly progressive thing if anyone applies those character traits to a woman and doesn’t subtly (or unsubtly) call her a slut, whore, or ‘a bad woman’ repeatedly within the story for it.Sorry, I thought you were talking about Anders in DA2, who was the character I saw someone start a petition towards bioware about because they said he was perpetuating negative gay stereotypes by being the first one to make a move (which they equated with him being too sexual).
I think though, saying that it’s damaging to make a bisexual male character who likes sex because it’s perpetuating the myth that people with homosexual tendencies are more sexual and it’s damaging to make a woman who likes sex because it perpetuates the myth that women are sluts even though there are bisexual males and females in the games who will only sleep with you if it’s monogamous, and others who won’t sleep with you at all, is killing storytelling. If it was a straight male character who would sleep with anyone, people would say he was just perpetuating the myth that all men think about is sex. I’m of the opinion to suggest that characters can’t act like characters because each and every one of them has to be a shining flawless role model to their entire subculture and exist only to combat stereotypes, that’s just as discriminating. You’re still focusing on the stereotypes and letting them define the character.
You have one bisexual male and he sleeps around a lot, that’s perpetuating negative stereotypes. You have three, one sleeps around, one is assertive enough to make the first move without being sex crazed and joking about sex all the time, and one is introverted and hard to romance, those aren’t stereotypes, those are different personalities.
And no one accuses the woman of being a slut or a “bad woman” for liking sex as far as I’ve gotten in the game.
Aveline is judgmental as hell toward Isabela at first, but as the game goes along and they get to know each other, they become the best of friends. One of my favorite parts of the game, that was.
I figured that was more because Isabella was a smuggler thief and Aveline is a cop, and Aveline disapproves every time you do anything on the shady side of legality, but I haven’t had them on my party together enough to get much fun dialogue.
Looking at the Wikia, I guess she does call her a whore but it’s after Isabella pokes fun at her for not being girly enough and makes fun of her dead husband… so uh… it’s less being critical because she has a lot of sex and more being critical of her as a person and trying to find something to get under her skin. I mean, Isabella straight up calls her a “mannish, awkward, ball-crushing do-gooder” right before Aveline calls her a “whore” so they seem to have a back-and-forth going.
I do like that Isabella and Varric apparently write “friend-fiction” about Aveline’s sex life, though.
I keep reading The Commander in Patrick Warburton’s voice
Oh God it won’t stop
As for ‘Capture the Babe’ I guess i’m glad the franchise is in Gearbox’s hands. They’ve done toilet humour before and they’re good at it. They’ve also created female characters who actually wear pants and aren’t defined by relationships with men (though you never see these women actually DO anything, but to be fair all characters in Borderlands that aren’t you are props). I’m going to have to see this play mode before I judge.
For serious, research related reasons. Obviously.
No! Marcus Fenix was my hero!!! until now…
I think I’ve just read a dozen variations of the comment “it’s Duke Nukem! What do you expect?”
No wonder Duke is so poorly trained! What, do you watch a dog misbehaving and say “he’s a dog! What’cha gonna do?” NO! You put him on a leash, and you teach him proper behavior, and that’s EXACTLY what we need to do here! Get Duke on a leash, tell him when he’s bad, and give him brewskies when he’s good! It’s the only way he’ll learn.
Watch the whole clip and pay attention to the ‘Feminist Apocalypse’ developers, and tell me you don’t squirm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5ev2Dp4I0
Oh WOW. I feel so bad for her, to have to sit there and listen to that.
This argument is moot, this is a freedom of speech issue, not a feminism v. masculinism issue. guys play more video games, video games are designed to be more accessible to them, want to complain about that? nobody has the right to restrict this developers freedom of speech as it is not put forward with the intent of causing sexual violence. form a moral point of veiw, my opinion is that if your gonna have a jacked up macho man might as well as have a few bouncing eye candy girls. they are both equally silly stereotypes, ive never met anyone in person who was so sexually objectified. oh, and Coelasquid, 20 year old guys dont need validation from outside sources, they self validate. I speak to you as a 18 year old male, and while their are some people who do things nobody likes, this is not restricted to the male group. I’ve witnessed just as many women sexually harass men as I’ve seen men sexually harass women, and in the end, these people grow out of it in a year or two or end up lonely for the rest of their life. Nobody likes it in RL and though it happens i agree with your take on it, that both groups will complain all they want, but the amount of people affected isnt large enough to get all hot and bothered about it from a legal point of veiw. though personally, there are women who want to be smacked, like really do, and their are those that dont, and most people can tell the difference and i wouldn’t dream of hitting a woman in RL unless it was self defense. the fact is, that while the feminist movement wants empowered women who arent weak, im stronger by twofold than all my female freinds, and picking a physical fight would be amoral because they arent on even footing. though i must concede they all out will me.
People are free to say whatever they want, other people are free to contest it as much as they want. Free speech does not mean everyone needs to unquestioningly accept what you say. If someone expresses themselves and it makes another person uncomfortable, that person is exactly as free to say as much, locate other people who were made to feel uncomfortable, and express their concerns to whoever made the original expression that the point of contention is over. The original party then gets to consider their message and decide if it is something they want to have their name attached to, or if they should revise or even apologize for the original message. Taking it too far or unfoundedly claiming either party’s arguments are invalid only results in a failure to communicate.
It is fantastic that you live in a place where men and women face exactly the same amout of harassment, maybe someday the rest of the world will catch up. Until then I hope that you enjoy living the dream, it sounds wonderful.
I dont believe anyone should be harassed, but i dont see a way to stop it from my position besides not participating and not associating with harassers. I fully agree though that people have the right to complain all they want, thats what free speech is about, however they dont have the right to ban the game or whatever the extremists in these types of situations want to do. I am personally supportive of anyone who takes a side because they are avoiding apathy. i totally see the validity in that treating sexual harassment as a joke is bad, however, if you want to argue that point, the subject matter, title, and stereotypes in your comic put you at a disadvantage. it uses male stupidity and aggressiveness to set the stage for many of its gaggs, and while i find this amuseing and acceptable, it is not anywhere near sexually nuetral. I hope that doesnt come across as jerkish, it is not intended to be, i actually support your opinion on the issue, but I also wanted to voice my opinions on related matters, as confusing as that sounds. I just know from personal experience, their will always be a subgroup of womanizeing guys, and the best thing to do is ignore them as hard as it is, they self validate and will clue in when they cant get dates. As for the fact that both sexes face the same amount of harassment is wonderful, i agree that its nice that it is equal, but think its upsetting that it happens at all.
Well, people can make it clear that they reject something, that’s something anyone can do. I’m not defending any kind of extremist, calling for legal action against the company is ridiculous (and anyone saying things like that is certainly in the minority, most people against it seem to range from “uncomfortable” to “offended” with “foaming at the mouth” way down at the end of the line where very few are condoning them. People are certainly free to boycott the game if it offends them, but the boycott will only be as effective as the number of people who agree with it. If the game ends up being truly offensive and people reject it, they won’t buy it. If it ends up being lighthearted and silly and they like it, they will. So in the end, no one is stomping on anyone’s free speech, people will just make their opinions known to the company.
On the subject of the comic, though, the goal has never been to exploit “male stupidity”. If anything, it’s to lampoon the notion that exceptionally masculine men need to be shallow and aggressive all the time. They can have hobbies and jobs and interpersonal relationships. The female equivalent would probably be something like writing the adventures of the various pinup girls of video games, poking fun at how difficult it is to function in society with beachball-sized jugs and a wardrobe made of fishnets. “sexist humour” is not inherently bad, but it isn’t going to be received very well unless the laughs are coming at the expense of the agressor rather than the victim. I understand that I have a wide range of readers, various ages, genders, and nationalities all with their own personal tastes. I try to pay mind to all of those people and keep things as even as possible given the subject matter. I understand that you can’t win every battle, but I make my best effort to be graceful in defeat.
I don’t find your comic offensive in the least, and i’m certainly not picking a fight about it, but it is sexist. the commander is the only one who doesn’t act shallow and aggressive, but these are all fictional people others came up with, so its really societies view of men that i am attacking, not your portrayal of it, youre portreyal pulls of the humor tastefully at the expense of the agressor, its just always a guy (though im sure you know that, just makeing it clearer). i find your comic good lolz and such and im a fan of the wait and see before i have an opinion method (as well as your comic). You’ve actually yet to say something i disagree with yet on the bigger subject, so ill stop writing huge block paragraphs (my browser doesn’t let me break them up).
Many of the characters have acted in ways other than shallow and aggressive. Dante teaches arts and crafts at a retirement home, Duke has been shown to have secret nerdy hobbies like sci-fi movie binges and D&D nights, Ganondorf has tried to enlighten Link to his racism, Pyramid head and his friends have game nights, Jack Krauser has anxiety related to unrequited love, the Prince of Persia needs help writing a resume, Marv has self esteem issues that get in the way of his love life, Sten has been pretty stoic and duty-bound aside from one instance of flipping out. I suppose if you’re defining sexism as “pertaining to gender roles”, yeah, I guess I’m exploiting sexist humour by trying to portray these characters as something more than flat stereotypes and apply their behaviour to society. But when most people talk about sexism they refer to it by the “discrimination or devaluation based on a person’s sex” definition, which I do not feel is the case in this comic. Discriminating against or devaluing masculinity is not my goal (and if someone told me they felt I was acting in a derogatory manner towards men, I would apologize and try to make my message clearer in the future). When the characters do “masculine” things like hang out in the garage drinking and smoking together, it is not played up in a negative way. My intent is quite the opposite, to make masculine characters who are not ashamed of their masculinity. It is true that a large part of the comic revolves around “cannot function in society”, but that is not a “can’t function because they are men” observation so much as a “can’t function because their entire personality was written to revolve around dismemberment”.
I see wisdom in your words.
Duke has always been offensive, that is part of his charm imo.
Capture the babe I am fine with in all honesty. It is really the slap I don’t care for.
And it is not like I get offended at violence at women.
My try confusion really is what would a reversal really look like? The one presented in the strip is hardly offensive an very funny.
It doesn’t need to be offensive, I just want to give everyone something equally silly to enjoy.
no one asked for another opinion, but I am so deeply, DEEPLY in agreement with EVERYTHING coleasquid has said in the comments, it’s crazy. you are SO eloquent, for real. some of these other readers opinions are just weirding me out.
also comic is lulzy, as usual.
Thanks! I try to keep things level headed, my years on the internet have taught me that people will generally keep their heads as long as you don’t attack them.
I think I should clear something up, here – a rapid skim over the comments thread(and of course, reading the comic shows you’re in the same situation, coleasquid) shows that many of you don’t seem to know one fundamental fact – Many of you seem to be mistaken that Duke is slapping the “babe” in the face – Not so. He’s giving her a smack on the ass. That’s also offensive, of course, but to make out Duke is slapping women in the face is utter bollocks. Don’t make it out to be what it isn’t, you only weaken your own position.
I honestly don’t give that much of a toss – well, about this issue in particular, because let’s face it, when you get down to gender politics, you end up with 1)Feminists who have confused Feminism for Misandry, 2)Masculists/men’s rights/whats-the-harm-lads kinda people who have confused Men’s rights/Masculisim with Mysogyny, and 3)People who actually have an intelligent stance on the issue, seek equality, and are Genuine Masculists and Feminists(Who, despite what you’d think, actually work for the same goal, just from different directions) but are drowned out by the former two groups screaming and throwing tantrums – but I figure if you’re going to criticize something, at least be accurate in describing what you criticize – because there is little that would be more damaging to your stance than a simple “Well, yes, that’s perfectly valid, but you’re complaining about something which isn’t the case and never was.”
Other than that, Comic was amusing, comments thread was amusingly feisty.
Having been reading and replying to most of these threads, most people are either clear that it is on the ass or don’t care where the slap is happening. Being slapped on the ass isn’t exactly “not degrading”. I’d say for the most part people here seem to be pretty civil and level headed, even if it is mostly the same couple arguments rehashed on both sides.
(I’ll add that no, I did not know at the time of drawing this that the slap was on the ass; no, it does not change my opinion -which at the moment is “I’ll wait and see before I have an opinion”, “calling this a double standard isn’t looking at the big picture”, and “women don’t like it when you slap their ass because you think you’re being funny”)
As I said, I quickly skimmed it, I likely missed that. My fault, but it does pay to be sure. My apologies for presuming.
I didn’t say it wasn’t degrading – I would consider it more degrading than a woman being slapped in the face, but less directly harmful, if that makes sense, as a slap on the ass is not generally intended to injure, whereas a slap to the face is generally something that a person does intending to cause physical pain.
However, I fear that’s simply a tainted personal view – I take no shame or degradation from losing a physical confrontation, however, being treated as a purely sexual object, I would find rather degrading. Your mileage may vary, naturally.
I’m not arguing the point at all – much like yourself I refuse to take a side on the issue till I actually observe the thing myself. I don’t know how it’s portrayed, the context, the situation, nothing whatsoever other than that it exists at this point in time – If people are going mental about it(And some certainly are), I feel they’re making an error of judgement in not waiting to see – even if only secondhand, by watching footage of it on youtube, for example – what it is they are complaining about.
Because, as has been said, if someone is permissive about being slapped on the ass, that’s not degrading at all, that’s perfectly fine. In some cases, even empowering, if you were to get into a discussion of the empowerment of embracing your kinks, sexuality and the like, which is a discussion I’m not going to get into at all upon the pain of death, because that’s a can of worms Atlas himself couldn’t lift.
People here are mostly civil – admirably so – thus why I said “Amusingly Fiesty”. People screaming insults at each other isn’t really that amusing the majority of the time.
Also, I should stop this habit of addressing both a person and a larger audience when speaking in any sort of public discussion. It just scans all wrong.
slapping anyone anywhere will get you in trouble if they dont want it. if, however you know the girl (say she is your girlfreind, personal experience) and she finds it playful and unoffensive, the action isnt really a problem. doing it to strangers or people who dont want you to touch them is inexcusable sexual harassment, no matter what people say.
addendum: or guy, you could tap a guys ass to, didnt think of that, but then thats my own personal bias.
Yeah, I don’t think anyone is debating that slapping someone who has made it clear they don’t mind it is an issue… I mean, you can put hooks through someone’s back and hang them from the ceiling if they ask you to, I’m not here to judge anyone’s kinks.
but what if the girls in the videogame are consenting? doesnt that make the game not an issue? but then its semantics, and angry people will be angry. the problem is, that people have allot of time to formulate debates and complaints, and their will always be complainers. gearbox is to fault on one issue, and thats monopolizing on the conflict.
I doubt the girls will be characterized to that extent, but it is one of the reasons I reserve judgment on things until I can observe them for myself, yes.
Nothing like the golden mean fallacy for alleviating your responsibility to actually know what you’re talking about.
Am I the only one here ignoring the controversy issue that people keep whining about and snerking at Fenix in a speedo and what I guess is a bikini top? Because, that’s some funny shit there.
Some people just take things too seriously.
They need to be slapped.
When it comes to these kinds of “events”, I usually find myself questioning the females state of mind, level of intelligence, mental state, lack of shame, etc, rather than harp on the guy for being… Well, male. XD;
Also, I know how you feel about people telling you what to do with your comic so I’m going to ask nicely instead; Will we be seeing Kratos again sometime soon? It’s been a couple of months and I miss him. ;-;
Isn’t that kind of the problem? People are upset about the women being brainless ‘objectives’ treated like sexier versions of flags in a game of capture the flag. Their entire purpose begins and ends with being sexy and being captured by men. If that was really all there was to the game, I could definitely see the issue. In this case however, the context of the game makes it clear that it’s a parody, which (in my opinion) makes it tolerable.
Very few people seem to be having a problem with men being portrayed as musclebound he-men only interested in “capturing babes”, which is arguably just as bad.
lol i remember when anne lewis got pushed off that ledge in robocop, she just couldnt keep her mind on the job could she lol.
I think it’d be funnier if there was a game mode where you can chase people down, beat the shit out of them and demand they “Put on the damn glasses, man!”
But I don’t think that’s Duke Nukem’s theme.
It might even make an awesome game on its own, come to think of it.
She wants something to B!tich about she should pop over to 4chan.
Wait, who wants something to bitch about?
All I can say is “Hey Charlie! There’s a new joke going around have you heard it? What did the five fingers say to the face?” Lol! Charlie Murphy vs Rick James – that skit cracks me up everytime.
Having said that I’m in this camp: “People who aren’t on board with Duke slapping his booty babes aren’t necessarily promoting double standards, they’d just be more comfortable if a game about women being hit focused more on the sort of women who hit back.”
Slap! Slap! Slap!
Not only do I agree with the point of this comic, and like your comic in general, after only skimming the surface of the comments on it (and your replies), I must say that I admire your patience!
Keep up the good work :)
1) For some reason I feel the cog on Fenix’s bikini bottom might be the funniest detail in this comic.
2) I agree entirely, although I confess I think it’s hilarious when my boyfriend tells me to get back in the kitchen (he’s always joking, though).
3) Kind of random: I was looking through a kilt catalog and happened upon a Turnbull tartan. It’s a pretty cool color combination.
tldr basically guys
Anyway you cut this, the offensiveness of this all is getting them free advertising. Seriously, look at this wall of text. People are interested in it. Is it offense? Heck yes. But, it’s offensive to the people who wouldn’t buy the game in the first place.
As was said by some people, of whom I’m unsure (May have been Penny Arcade)
Duke is a creature from a time long past. The world has changed since then, and there’s a damn good chance he will get a lot of flak because of it.
This is actually about under representation of girl gamers. Lets go back to those frat boys Coelasquid talked about: They would drive by in cars and shout insults. It wasn’t the media telling the boys that it was okay to do this. It was because there was nothing in the situation to say otherwise:
Coelasquid couldn’t respond; anyone who’s been harassed in this way knows there is no time for a comeback when your adversary is driving away.
Nobody who witnessed this abuse could give a dirty look or stick up for ‘squid.
Nobody could see exactly which frat shouted from the car: this makes the “pack mentality” Coelasquid mentioned even stronger.
So heres my point: People do what they want. ALWAYS. If we want the jerks in the car to shut up, it does no good for the media to tell them what they are doing is wrong. You have to make them want to shut up. (although in this case, I have no idea how)
And its the same with the media. Problem is, not enough Girls buy Duke Nukem Games. If they did, then there would be no capture the babe mini-game.
wtv…
I guess I just wish people would stop nitpicking about what is good or bad, and start thinking how to make people want to be good.
“And its the same with the media. Problem is, not enough Girls buy Duke Nukem Games. If they did, then there would be no capture the babe mini-game.”
I am not so sure about that. GTA is packed with sexist content and it is still one of the most popular games for women gamers.
Here, enjoy a university study on how sexist humour makes men act more disrespectfully towards women than outright sexist statements or neutral humour. To just say “no one is ever effected by media influences so we shouldn’t even stop to think about how the things we say might influence the way people act” is pretty uh… unfounded unless the person lives in a cultural vacuum…
Like I said though, I’m not saying “Oh I’m offended, this shouldn’t exist”, I’m just sayin’ people have every right to take issue if they want to. Might boost the sales of the game, might make people realize why women would react negatively to that kind of humour, might just be one in a pile of influences encouraging people to act like dicks. People who say that anyone who doesn’t like the game should shut up and ignore it are trying to stomp all over free speech and censor what others have to say even more than people who call for boycotts.
Well…. that’s that then.
I have seen someone win an argument on the internet, I am going to log off and read a book now.
I remember doing a story on that paper, And you’re semi-accurate, but you’re missing something quite important to the paper – The paper doesn’t state that it makes men in general act more disrespectfully towards women, The hypothesis the paper confirmed is that Sexist men exposed to sexist humor can promote the behavioral release of their already existing prejudice against women.
It also dealt specifically with hostile sexisim, in other words, Negative emotion focused towards women, the Belief that they are inferior to men, and so on.
If I recall the actual paper correctly – I can’t go back and look at it again to confirm, unfortunately, since my none of my current employers provide me with any journal subscriptions – It also showed that men who were not sexist to begin with showed little or no increase in disrespectful or sexist behavior.
I should note, though, I only know of this by coincidence, that I covered it for work, back when I was a salary journalist, instead of freelance – And the article you linked to mis-reported it quite seriously, even just the abstract disagrees with the results they imply.
Err, so what I’m saying by that last bit is that I’m not trying to grouse on you, I just had knowledge of the paper in question – Since you were not in that situation, and only had someone else reporting incorrectly on the paper to go on, that’s not your mistake, that’s the fault of poor reporting. And It’s not like I expect you to go out and buy journal subscriptions just to confirm a news source.
Everyone, the way I see it, Duke Nukem is so awesome, his games should have there own rating. The angry people will call it “A for adults” But everyone knows it really stands for “A for Awesome”.
If you really want to start a flame war about playing these “sexist games”, then please, ladies, be my guest. Im sure the world appreciates it.
I’d hardly call this comic “starting a flamewar”, unless the audience is much more sensitive than I was anticipating.
Wow…I click to look at the comments and all I see are these long diatribes about who knows what cause they’re all too long for me to give a damn about lol
^this is clearly the most poignant and irreplaceable comment in all of the discussion.
Really though I was just popping in to say thanks for the great comics Coela, and props for maintaining a relatively cool head on the internet. You (alongside pretty much just Andrew Hussie) are a webcomic person whose comments are almost as enjoyable (or at least interesting) as the actual comic.
But: will anything you draw ever top Mr. Fish? His surly, not-taking-your-shit look has got to torment you as only a singular piece of artistic perfection can.
Seriously though. Out of all the characters you draw/lampoon/celebrate in this comic, the actual in-video game ones, not those of your own continuity/creation, which character was/is your favorite? Who is the Manly Man among Manly Men? (for the humor of his purely outrageous attitude, out of actual respect, whichever)
My vote is Sten. I love Sten.
Doesn’t your comic pretty much invalidate your argument?
The Duke Nukem developers created the Capture The Babe game because they thought it was funny. You created this comic to prove that it wouldn’t be so funny if the genders were reversed…and yet it turned out funny anyway. I’m a guy and I found the image of Fenix in the bikini hilarious. And I see several comments on this forum by (I assume) females who were delighted to see Fenix in skimpy clothes.
So really, haven’t you proven the developers’ point? Capture The Babe is funny, and it’s just as funny with the genders reversed. What are we complaining about?
I’m not sure if you didn’t read the comic, or just made up a new comic in your head and pretended you read that one instead or what happened here. You’re completely missing the point if you thought I made this comic to show it wouldn’t be funny. Very rarely is my goal to make a comic that isn’t funny. In fact, I’d say almost never.
I really can’t break the comic down much more for you than the comic itself and the comment underneath it do, I’d suggest you read them again, this time without replacing the dialogue with whatever diatribe you made up in your head to get mad at me about. All the comic says is that violence by a competent fully clothed man against a competent fully clothed man is not the same as violence by a competent fully clothed man against hysteric women in skimpy beachwear, and that people aren’t promoting a double standard by discouraging the game unless it also includes a minigame involving a competent fully clothed man slapping a hysterical man in skimpy swimwear and people raise no issue with that. There was no mention of how funny the minigame would be in either case. In fact, I think several times in the comments I said that I would probably find both funny.
And while you personally have no issue with an objectified Fenix, you are not all men, or even all people who could forseeably raise issue with such a minigame. Given the fact that one of the first comments I received on the strip was “Thank you for the Marine-in-a-Bikini shot coelasquid, that’s just what I needed to see before I sleep, now pardon me I need to go acquire a vast quantity of brain bleach.”, I would say that yes, such a game would also recieve complaints. As was the original point I trying to make.
Say it with me now “As long as they’re complaining the same amount, you’re good”
“You’re completely missing the point if you thought I made this comic to show it wouldn’t be funny.”
Then I don’t see what the point of this comic was at all. If you were trying to prove that people complaining about this minigame are hypocrites and Capture the Babe is harmless fun, then I’d say you succeeded. If not…then your comic completely invalidates your argument.
It’s hardly my fault if your comic contradicts your argument, or if your message wasn’t as logically sound as you intended it to be.
“I really can’t break the comic down much more for you than the comic itself and the comment underneath it do, I’d suggest you read them again, this time without replacing the dialogue with whatever diatribe you made up in your head to get mad at me about.”
It’s funny you say that given that you seem to have completely ignored my comment and replaced it with some diatribe you made up in your head to get mad about.
There was nothing angry or even mildly upset about my comment. I just expressed my puzzlement about what exactly your point was with this comic, since it seems to pretty blatantly contradict the argument you made directly below it. I don’t know if you’re naturally this aggressive or you’re just having a bad day or what, but you certainly weren’t responding to what I actually said.
“All the comic says is that violence by a competent fully clothed man against a competent fully clothed man is not the same as violence by a competent fully clothed man against hysteric women in skimpy beachwear, and that people aren’t promoting a double standard by discouraging the game unless it also includes a minigame involving a competent fully clothed man slapping a hysterical man in skimpy swimwear and people raise no issue with that.”
…Which would be relevant if that was what was happening here. But it isn’t. The people up in arms about this minigame aren’t demanding a corresponding mini-game that equally objectifies men in a humorous fashion. They’re just demanding that this minigame be censored to avoid offending their precious liberal sensibilities.
Not to mention if they really believed what they were saying they would be just as mad if not madder at every sitcom tv show on the air today wherein men (and fathers especially for some reason) are universally portrayed as stupid, feckless, and whiny losers who have to be led around by the nose by strong, intelligent women who can do no wrong.
“In fact, I think several times in the comments I said that I would probably find both funny.”
Which, again, only proves my point that your comic has no point. If both would be funny, what the hell is everybody complaining about? If you don’t like Capture the Babe, go make, market, and sell your own version with the genders reversed. I guarantee you won’t be beset by a hoard of angry men complaining about sexism and sexual objectification, nor will you see feminists complaining that your game is sexist and objectifies men (hint: that’s called a double-standard).
“And while you personally have no issue with an objectified Fenix, you are not all men, or even all people who could forseeably raise issue with such a minigame. Given the fact that one of the first comments I received on the strip was “Thank you for the Marine-in-a-Bikini shot coelasquid, that’s just what I needed to see before I sleep, now pardon me I need to go acquire a vast quantity of brain bleach.”, I would say that yes, such a game would also recieve complaints. As was the original point I trying to make.”
Wow, seriously? You took some dude’s joke as a complaint about sexual objectification? It was quite clear to me that the guy who made that comment found your comic quite funny. He wasn’t complaining about sexism or sexual objectification, he was making a joke.
Let’s break it down, because you still seem to have completely missed what the comic is about;
-Duke is complaining that the park committee won’t let him reserve the field to play capture the babe, and says it’s a double standard because if he was slapping a man no one would care.
-Commander says that he changed too many variables so the argument is invalid.
-A variable (or more specifically an “independent variable”) is the attribute or quality a researcher will change to observe the altered output (or “dependent variable”) of an experiment.
-Ideally an experiment changes one variable at a time for the most reliable results. For example, if you want to measure what freezes faster, hot water or cold water, your only variable should be the temperature of the water. All of the other variables such as the volume of the water, the purity of the water, and the temperature of the freezing chamber must remain constant for accurate results. If you froze 10mL of cold filtered water in a shallow pan at -5C vS 20mL of warm salt water in a graduated cylider at -35C, too many variables would have been changed and the results would be dismissable.
-Duke altered his target from a small woman in her underwear to a large man in body armour, so too many variables have been altered to validate his hypothesis.
-In an effort to minimize the number of variables, they strip Fenix down to a comparable percentage of exposed flesh. (it should be known that this still does not minimize the variables to one, an ideal experiment would either make the girls 250lb bodybuilders or the men equally small and helpless, but that wouldn’t be as funny)
-Duke realizes that yes, people will probably end up complaining if he makes a game out of carrying around and slapping a swimwear-clad Fenix.
-Commander informs him that as long as everyone is complaining the same amount, he will be allowed to play his game in peace. This does not mean that people will stop complaining all together, but an equally negative response all around will balance the scales.
The only “point” the comic is trying to make is that a large man in body armour is not the same thing as small woman in a bikini. If you missed that, well, I guess that’s your bad, I can’t really make it any clearer for you. The comic is not denying that double standards exist, only stating that in this case too many variables have been altered to claim that double standards are to blame for the controversey. Nor does it state that the inclusion of such a minigame would make people stop complaining, only that it would make an equal number of people complain all around. Really, this comic is barely about sexism, equality or what developers should or shouldn’t do at all; it’s about people who skew the scientific process to force the results into suiting their hypothesis.
Although, if you think that no one would complain about a Duke Nukem game that involved carrying around swimwear clad space marines and slapping their asses, I fear that you’re overestimating the open-mindedness of what has become the console multiplayer environment. Perhaps watch the Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab Hate Speech experiment and consider how many of these players would respond to finding such a minigame in Duke Nukem next to Capture the Babe. So called “straight male gamers” have been noted to complain in other situations where games were made to appeal to a larger demographic by being more inclusive to all genders or sexualities, so I imagine a “capture the hunk” game would see a similar response.
But hey, if I’m wrong, everybody thinks it’s funny and no one has any issues at all then they should include both minigame variants. Everyone will be happy and get a lot of laughs, the arguments of the people complaining about sexism will be invalidated. No downside!
I think sometimes you just make the commander’s speech alittle too hard to read. Is this just me or do any of you think so too?
I think we’re all missing the real point here… Strippers aren’t real women. I mean come on they’re like 80% silicone. That’d be like slapping Darth Vader in a bikini and honestly the though of that is hilarious.
Hey, just remember to also give me a game where I – I mean the character – can slap Dukes pretty, tight macho ass to my hearts content. He’s one sexy pric*, brains or not.
I loved this comic, tho!
I’m not complaining about the Fenix bikini.
Man, remember when slapping women was the worst thing we were worried about for DNF? Ah, those halcyon salad days, How little we knew.
My god, how many POSTS OF BULLSHIT.
DUKE FTW
Funny thing is, I can totally see John DiMaggio agreeing to do this.
Thank you in this – its amazing
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